Brett Lee in test team

[Richard]

I only mentioned Steyn because he was recently South Africa's third seamer in the English series but you must be joking with the majority of those bowlers. David Terbrugge? Roger Telemachus? Charl Willougbhy? Dawson? Mr injury himself, Ngam? Sure, Langeveldt is improving, while Hall and Klusener are useful at times but none of those bowlers are anyway near the standard of Brett Lee.

Really? I'd say Terbrugge, especially, is twice as good as Lee. How he's not played more international cricket, and how Steyn ever got picked ahead of him, is totally beyond me.
All right, I might have been exaggerating to include Telemachus, and Ngam can't really be considered until he lasts 2 seasons in a row - but seriously, Dawson and Willoughby can both swing and seam the ball and are massively more accurate than him, and Langeveldt and Klusener likewise.
Hall's had enough chances, of course, and how he can bowl such trash in Tests in such contrast to how he bowls in domestic-First-Class-cricket is beyond me. Yet still, I reckon he's just a bit better than Lee.

 

[Richard]

Richard, what basis do you judge Lee on?

Stats? (understandable since he went for 200 runs in his last test, though a recent MoS is nothing to sneeze at)

Past achievements?

Current form? (God forbid)

Six months ago I was crucifying Lee, but the turnaround he's had is astounding. How does Willoughby outclass him in your book?

How has Lee had a turnaround? What exactly is he doing ATM that he wasn't doing 12 months ago? His ODI outcomes haven't changed much - mostly bowling trash, sometimes being hammered, sometimes getting much better figures than he's bowled for, and occasionally producing a good spell.
Willoughby outclasses him because, simply, he's more accurate than Lee will ever have a hope in hell of being.
As for judging him on stats - once again, there has never been a good bowler with an average of nearly 40.

 

[Zinzan]

His central contract meant that he was a certain to be in the squad - I think you'll find it'll be a ling time before he plays Tests again.




Depends which Lee you look at - because there's absolutely no evidence to suggest the pre-injury one will ever return - and the post-injury one is struggling to remain below 40.

Yes the post injury looks awful at the moment doesn't he....no pace, no wickets, no swing... Is that right??

 

[Fiery]

LOL! Although I agree they're disgusting, at least when he got Vettori that wicket meant something to the game and he earnt it.

I'll never forget his chainsaw celebration (I think it was that) when he clean bowled Ganguly, when India were closing in on 700 runs in the 4th test match in Sydney. Absolutely hilarious. I was in absolute shock that he was seriously celebrating.

Is he still running down the length of the pitch leaping as high as he can and punching the air at the top of the leap with a look on his face that looks like he's just shot his load every time he gets a No.11 out?
Lleyton Hewitt and Brett Lee are two of the most objectionable Aussies to ever take up sport.
Who do you Aussies hate the most out of the kiwi side?

 

[social]

Is he still running down the length of the pitch leaping as high as he can and punching the air at the top of the leap with a look on his face that looks like he's just shot his load every time he gets a No.11 out?
Lleyton Hewitt and Brett Lee are two of the most objectionable Aussies to ever take up sport.
Who do you Aussies hate the most out of the kiwi side?

I dont really object to any members of the Kiwi side.

However, if we're talking rugby ........

Actually, that's not quite fair. I still despise the poms in rugby more than anyone.

 

[social]

Really? I'd say Terbrugge, especially, is twice as good as Lee. How he's not played more international cricket, and how Steyn ever got picked ahead of him, is totally beyond me.
All right, I might have been exaggerating to include Telemachus, and Ngam can't really be considered until he lasts 2 seasons in a row - but seriously, Dawson and Willoughby can both swing and seam the ball and are massively more accurate than him, and Langeveldt and Klusener likewise.
Hall's had enough chances, of course, and how he can bowl such trash in Tests in such contrast to how he bowls in domestic-First-Class-cricket is beyond me. Yet still, I reckon he's just a bit better than Lee.

Richard,

medium pacers that arent very accurate hardly compare to someone of similar accuracy that bowls at 150 ks plus with similar movement.

Dawson, Willoughby, Langeweldt, Klusener, Kirtley (who's absolutely horrible), etc would be lucky to be regular first-class bowlers in Aus.

Gough's knee cant stand up to test cricket (which is precisely why he's retired from the game) and Caddick is 2 years past it.

Flintoff is the only one you've mentioned that stands up to scrutiny and even he has only been consistently successful in the past 12 months and would not (as he is an all-rounder) be competing for a spot with Lee anyway.

 

[Eclipse]

Really? I'd say Terbrugge, especially, is twice as good as Lee. How he's not played more international cricket, and how Steyn ever got picked ahead of him, is totally beyond me.
All right, I might have been exaggerating to include Telemachus, and Ngam can't really be considered until he lasts 2 seasons in a row - but seriously, Dawson and Willoughby can both swing and seam the ball and are massively more accurate than him, and Langeveldt and Klusener likewise.
Hall's had enough chances, of course, and how he can bowl such trash in Tests in such contrast to how he bowls in domestic-First-Class-cricket is beyond me. Yet still, I reckon he's just a bit better than Lee.

I don't think Lee will ever be a good test bowler, hope he proves me wrong mind you...

But have you been watching his recent ODI game's ? if you had then you would notice for one thing alot less half vollys and a better length overall, still maybe overdoes the short ball but as of late it's been getting him wickets & or keeping the runs down.

 

[vic_orthdox]

LOL! Although I agree they're disgusting, at least when he got Vettori that wicket meant something to the game and he earnt it.

I'll never forget his chainsaw celebration (I think it was that) when he clean bowled Ganguly, when India were closing in on 700 runs in the 4th test match in Sydney. Absolutely hilarious. I was in absolute shock that he was seriously celebrating.

remember when new zealand was over here last time in about 2000 (feel free to correct me) and in the 3rd test at the WACA, the black caps were 8/500, and brett lee yorked shane bond, did the big star jump, ran down the pitch yahooing while staring down bond the whole time. i had to buy a new tv....and a new shoe.

 

[Fiery]

remember when new zealand was over here last time in about 2000 (feel free to correct me) and in the 3rd test at the WACA, the black caps were 8/500, and brett lee yorked shane bond, did the big star jump, ran down the pitch yahooing while staring down bond the whole time. i had to buy a new tv....and a new shoe.

You must have a good arm

 

[vic_orthdox]

haha, ok. slight exaggeration. but only because i was watching the game at someone else's place. i thought it might have been a tad rude.

 

[Richard]

Yes the post injury looks awful at the moment doesn't he....no pace, no wickets, no swing... Is that right??

Not quite, but wickets at nearly 40... that's pretty darn awful.

 

[Richard]

Richard,

medium pacers that arent very accurate hardly compare to someone of similar accuracy that bowls at 150 ks plus with similar movement.

Dawson, Willoughby, Langeweldt, Klusener, Kirtley (who's absolutely horrible), etc would be lucky to be regular first-class bowlers in Aus.

Rubbish.
To label any of the above "medium-pacers" (when all are medium-fast - sometimes even fast-medium) "that aren't very accurate" really does reveal how much you've watched of them.
All 5 are impossibly more accurate than Lee will ever be, and as such far better bowlers, even if they are 15kph slower.
If Lee can get a game in First-Class cricket in Australia - not to mention Cleary, Edmundson, Wise, Dorey, Geeves, Downton, Denton, Cullen, Noffke, Griffith, Magoffin and other such rubbish bowlers - forgive me, I think most of the South African bowlers I named would walk into Australian First-Class-cricket, and James Kirtley too.

Gough's knee cant stand up to test cricket (which is precisely why he's retired from the game) and Caddick is 2 years past it.

Wrong, Gough found himself, having missed 2 years of Test-cricket, coming back and getting 1-222 or something in his 2 comeback Tests, on incredibly flat pitches when everyone else got hammered too... had he come back 2 Tests later I wouldn't be surprised if he was still playing now.
And as for Caddick... well, I don't really expect you'd know much about his situation.

 

[Richard]

I don't think Lee will ever be a good test bowler, hope he proves me wrong mind you...

But have you been watching his recent ODI game's ? if you had then you would notice for one thing alot less half vollys and a better length overall, still maybe overdoes the short ball but as of late it's been getting him wickets & or keeping the runs down.

Including these games, then?

 

[Top_Cat]

If Lee can get a game in First-Class cricket in Australia - not to mention Cleary, Edmundson, Wise, Dorey, Geeves, Downton, Denton, Cullen, Noffke, Griffith, Magoffin and other such rubbish bowlers - forgive me, I think most of the South African bowlers I named would walk into Australian First-Class-cricket, and James Kirtley too.

Richard, your labelling of those bowlers as 'rubbish' shows your ignorance of domestic Australian cricket (not your fault; you're not in the country after all) so I think you should, in this case, stick to that which you know. All you've done is list the bowlers whose stats don't reach some arbitrarily defined standard.

Cullen, for example, is a very promising off-spinner who's only just finishing his first season of FC cricket in a country where off-spinners generally don't succeed so naturally his numbers will be higher. And listing Cleary indicates you're speaking of this season only - how can you just label his as rubbish when you clearly haven't seen him bowl? Cleary averages about 44 with the ball this season but he's only played 4 matches and Dorey is averaging 23 with the ball this season. Cleary's overall number are high (around 31 per wicket) but he's not a rubbish bowler I promise you. Denton, Noffke and Griffith - all talented pacers, ALL injury-prone (and that includes Cleary this season too).

You want to compare Lee to other international bowlers that's fine but leave the domestic bowlers out of it because (all due respect) you don't know what you're talking about in this instance.

 

[social]

Including these games, then?[/URL]

Richard,

How many of these games did you actually see?

Im guessing none.

If that is the case, you would not have a clue as to whether Lee bowled well, averagely or poorly in those games.

Given the fact that he is still in the team, and being consistently praised for his performances, wouldnt you think that it's fair to say that these performances were, at worst, anomalies in an otherwise very good ODI season to date?

The point remains that Brett Lee has, in ODIs, improved markedly this year. Whether this translates into improved test performances is yet to be proven.

However, TO COMPARE HIM TO ORDINARY MEDIUM PACERS FROM ALL POINTS OF THE GLOBE SHOWS COMPLETE IGNORANCE AS TO BOTH HIS ABILITIES AND OF WHAT IT TAKES TO BE SUCCESSFUL IN INTERNATIONAL CRICKET.

 

[Neil Pickup]

Richard,

How many of these games did you actually see?

Im guessing none.

If that is the case, you would not have a clue as to whether Lee bowled well, averagely or poorly in those games.

Given the fact that he is still in the team, and being consistently praised for his performances, wouldnt you think that it's fair to say that these performances were, at worst, anomalies in an otherwise very good ODI season to date?

The point remains that Brett Lee has, in ODIs, improved markedly this year. Whether this translates into improved test performances is yet to be proven.

However, TO COMPARE HIM TO ORDINARY MEDIUM PACERS FROM ALL POINTS OF THE GLOBE SHOWS COMPLETE IGNORANCE AS TO BOTH HIS ABILITIES AND OF WHAT IT TAKES TO BE SUCCESSFUL IN INTERNATIONAL CRICKET.

The rest of us have given up arguing, it's better this way...

 

[Black Thunder]

Lee is such a talented cricketer - perhaps behind only Warne and Ponting in the Australian team. In terms of the globe, there aren't many quicks that match his talent - Akhtar, Bond, Steyn...... maybe a handful of others.

The unfortunate thing is, he just can't play the game.

 

[chaminda_00]

Not quite, but wickets at nearly 40... that's pretty darn awful.

I know allot of bowlers that average near 40 thoughout their career not just a small section of their careers (some of those u have named as better then him).
- Willioughby 1 wkt @ 125 and one of his test was aganist BD. ODI record isn't much better
- Dawson played two test aganist BD and hasn't been back since, struggles to make the SA A too. His ODI record isn't that flash too either (ave=34, E/R=4.76)
- Klusener: Test Ave of 38, specks for itself and in his last full season of Test Cricket averaged 40.
- Hall: ave of 35 and s/r of 67 not better then Brett Lee even at his worst

 

[Richard]

Lee is such a talented cricketer - perhaps behind only Warne and Ponting in the Australian team. In terms of the globe, there aren't many quicks that match his talent - Akhtar, Bond, Steyn...... maybe a handful of others.

The unfortunate thing is, he just can't play the game.

If he can't play the game, he ain't that talented.
To call Dale Steyn, for instance, talented is to ignore what is talent: yes, he can do stuff others can't (ie bowl at 90mph occasionally - and even that in South Africa where people bowl faster than elsewhere) but he's not (yet, at any rate) particularly talented, because he's very, very wayward.

 

[Richard]

I know allot of bowlers that average near 40 thoughout their career not just a small section of their careers (some of those u have named as better then him).

And Lee has averaged 40 for far, far more than a small section of his career - currently it makes-up 81%.

- Willioughby 1 wkt @ 125 and one of his test was aganist BD. ODI record isn't much better

He's played 3 ODIs FCOL! And if you'd seen him bowl you'd realise that he's extremely accurate - more accurate than Lee will ever be - and that in domestic cricket he swings the ball. If he could swing it at intl level he'd be some bowler.

- Dawson played two test aganist BD and hasn't been back since, struggles to make the SA A too. His ODI record isn't that flash too either (ave=34, E/R=4.76)

So because someone's never had a chance to play Test-cricket you write him off - and I'd hardly say that, at 35, it's very surprising someone's not being picked for an A-side.

- Klusener: Test Ave of 38, specks for itself and in his last full season of Test Cricket averaged 40.

Err - perhaps because he's only recently started to bowl like he bowled before 1998 when he suffered a serious ankle injury (pre-injury he averaged 32.02, since his injury he's averaged 44.42).

- Hall: ave of 35 and s/r of 67 not better then Brett Lee even at his worst

Because Hall has by-and-large bowled every bit as poorly as Lee in his Test-career - doesn't really make sense, because he could be a very good bowler if he bowled in Tests with the accuracy he bowls with in domestic-First-Class-cricket - but it's happened nonetheless.