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Botham vs Flintoff

C_C

International Captain
Gregory and Macdonald for a start.
Good.
Now explain to me how and why two relatively unfit 'bowlers' who were probably bankers or milkmen more than bowlers were anywhere CLOSE to being as good as the alltimers i've named.

Can you tell me where do yo get this ridiculous notion that 'greats of all eras are more or less equal' ?
 

badgerhair

U19 Vice-Captain
C_C said:
Good.
Now explain to me how and why two relatively unfit 'bowlers' who were probably bankers or milkmen more than bowlers were anywhere CLOSE to being as good as the alltimers i've named.

Can you tell me where do yo get this ridiculous notion that 'greats of all eras are more or less equal' ?
I'm truly sorry for having commented on your ridiculous post. I no longer wish to discuss anything with you, as you have nothing to say which would interest me. Life as a cricket fan is so much more interesting if you accept as a general theory that a good player is a good player in any era, and I prefer my kind of world to yours. I'll stay on my planet, and you can stay on yours. It will be simpler that way.

Cheers,

Mike
 

C_C

International Captain
i agree that life as a cricket fan would be far more romantacised if we maintain the notion that a good player is a good player in any era.
That i do not dispute
What i do dispute, is whether that notion is an accurate and correct one.
For nomatter how much we would wish to believe in something, fantasy never is, never was and never will be the truth.
 

C_C

International Captain
So why do you keep bringing in these fantasy theories then?
There is nothing fantasical in the notion that cricket has developed and gone to a higher level than what was played 80-100 years ago, for that is consistent with ANY human endevour.

it is fantasical to maintain that a good player in 1750s = a good player today or a 'learned man' from the 1500s = a 'learned man' today.
For categoric evidence is against you in every field where categoric evidencing is available.
 

FaaipDeOiad

Hall of Fame Member
C_C said:
There is nothing fantasical in the notion that cricket has developed and gone to a higher level than what was played 80-100 years ago, for that is consistent with ANY human endevour.

it is fantasical to maintain that a good player in 1750s = a good player today or a 'learned man' from the 1500s = a 'learned man' today.
For categoric evidence is against you in every field where categoric evidencing is available.
As much as I think your "learned man" example is pointless, I'll run with it for a moment. We are agreed that a modern scientist has a greater understand of the workings of the world than, say, Isaac Newton. Does that mean they are smarter, or a bigger genius, or a more important thinker, or in any fashion more worthwhile? If you were to make a team of great scientists and thinkers to deal with some sort of problem of fiendish complexity, would you omit Galileo, Newton, Einstein and so on because they might not know certain things which a modern scientist does, or include them because their world-changing brilliance is of greater value than inhereted scientific facts?

Anyway, nobody is claiming that a player in the 1750s is as good as a player today. However, there is a particular point (or rather, a general perior) at which cricket comes out of its "infancy", and becomes a spot with similar requirements and standards to what it is today. Given that cricket is not a purely physical competition, like say athletics, it is unreasonable to suggest that players simply get better as time goes on with better training and so on. There is no reason why Ricky Ponting would have better timing than Don Bradman, despite the fact that he almost certainly has a more rigourous and intensive cricket-based lifestyle, while a 100 metre sprinter today undoubtedly runs faster than a similar athlete in the 1930s. The point at which cricket crosses from infancy into a professional, grueling sport is after WW1 in my opinion, after which the consistency of standards rose greatly, with series like Bodyline being as competitive and highly skilled as anything one is likely to see today.

Even having said that, I still consider players like Sydney Barnes and company worthy of consideration in an all-time XI, but I recognise that he perhaps had lower levels of dedication facing him than a cricketer today might. Try telling me that any of the players in the 30/31 Ashes was a namby pamby amatuer however, and you're just being foolish.
 

C_C

International Captain
. Does that mean they are smarter, or a bigger genius, or a more important thinker, or in any fashion more worthwhile? If you were to make a team of great scientists and thinkers to deal with some sort of problem of fiendish complexity, would you omit Galileo, Newton, Einstein and so on because they might not know certain things which a modern scientist does, or include them because their world-changing brilliance is of greater value than inhereted scientific facts?
We are not talking potential here, we are talking about accrued skills.
Galeleo and Newton could probably blow me outta the ballpark IF they spent a few years catching up with me. But that does not garantee that newton or galeleo would make quantum breakthroughs in modern science.

But point is, if they bring their accrued knowledge, as in 'what they knew before they passed away', they would get hopelessly outclassed by me.
Just like if Hobbs was time-teleported into the 70s or 80s, he would be Imran/Marshall/Lillee/Holding/Roberts' b*tch.
He would have to sweat a LOT out in the nets before he makes even the English-A side.
And just like newton or galeleo, there is no garantee that he would succeed in the same level as greats of modern day have.

As per to the rest of your post,
there is no set demarcation from which everything stands still.
Things ALWAYS improve in the general trend and so has cricket.
Timing is just a miniscule part of cricket that doesnt change. But fitness, dedication, hard work, discipline and careful scrutinisation of the opposition have all taken an upward trend from 50-60 years ago.
Like i said, it is not a linear constant progress as in 'any point preceeding the current is inferior in quality' but a general upwards trend- like the stock index over the last 100 years, where the current point could be lower than the one immediately preceeding it but overall it is at a higher standing than a point 40-50 years ago. Cricket may have been harder in the 1920s compared to 1880s. But it was harder in the 1950s than it was in 1920s and it was harder in 1970s than 1950s. Simply because of the improvement in the quality of player fitness, analysis of the opposition, levels of competitiveness and discipline. Which is precisely why a player following the same routine as one from 1920s is gonna find an extremely hard time succeeding. You can no longer be a 'milkman or banker during the day' and 'cricketer during the evening and weekends' and still compete with the best of the best. Fitness levels have improved. More time is spent perfecting your craft, more effort expended in scrutinising the opposition.

As such, everybody who is before the golden age of cricket ( 60s-2000s) would take a hit- so would most players playing in 2005.
That is true for any human endavour when comparing over long periods of time.
 
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vic_orthdox

Global Moderator
Generally, the gun players of the past were as fit, and had as much access to knowledge of technique and the weaknesses of their opposition, as their competitors. Their record is exceptional in comparison to their peers, as well as generally eprforming against the best that that time had to offer.

Generally, the gun players of the now are as fit, and have as much access to knowlege of technique and the weaknesses of their opposition, as their competitors. Their record is exceptional in comparison to their peers, as well as generally performing against the best that that time had to offer
 

C_C

International Captain
I disagree that the players 80 years ago had anywhere close to the analysis of their peers as players today do.
Today we have extensive video tech and computer tech to analyse each and every stroke of batsmen around the world for their entire international careers to try and figure out a fault.
Jimmy Adams was exposed that way.
Players back then did not have anywhere close to the same level of analysis at hand.

And i definately do not think players back then were anywhere close to being as fit as they are today.
One categoric proof of that is the stunning difference between fielding quality today ad 80 years ago.
Nobody hurled themselves around the way every tom **** and harry does today.
 

vic_orthdox

Global Moderator
C_C said:
I disagree that the players 80 years ago had anywhere close to the analysis of their peers as players today do.
Today we have extensive video tech and computer tech to analyse each and every stroke of batsmen around the world for their entire international careers to try and figure out a fault.
Jimmy Adams was exposed that way.
Players back then did not have anywhere close to the same level of analysis at hand.

And i definately do not think players back then were anywhere close to being as fit as they are today.
One categoric proof of that is the stunning difference between fielding quality today ad 80 years ago.
Nobody hurled themselves around the way every tom **** and harry does today.
That's my point. You can only compare against their "competitors" - by competitors I'm meaning those they played with and against in their own era.
 

C_C

International Captain
Yes i know.
I am not going by the rather arbitray 'if they were born today, they would've all adjusted uniformly' theory but by direct empirical comparisons of their skills.
Ie, if they brought exactly the same thing on the table today as they did 80-90 years ago,they would all take a hit compared to their 1920s/30s/40s/50s average.
 

vic_orthdox

Global Moderator
C_C said:
Yes i know.
I am not going by the rather arbitray 'if they were born today, they would've all adjusted uniformly' theory but by direct empirical comparisons of their skills.
Ie, if they brought exactly the same thing on the table today as they did 80-90 years ago,they would all take a hit compared to their 1920s/30s/40s/50s average.
See, this is what is up for argument. What is there to say that Matthew Hayden has only averaged over 50 in Test Cricket at this time because of the video analysis made available to him, the specially groomed turf nets at the Aus. Academy to help his prowess against spin bowling, the increased emphasis on fitness allowing him to maximise his scores and raise his average and meaning he doesn't get as tired as what he would have otherwise.

If you talk about how players from 1920-40 would perform nowadays, maybe you need to compare how modern day players would compare nowadays without the creature comforts that they currently receive?

Personally, I think it's too conscientious to write off the players of yesteryear as instantlly as you have.
 

Pedro Delgado

International Debutant
C_C said:
Good.
Now explain to me how and why two relatively unfit 'bowlers' who were probably bankers or milkmen more than bowlers were anywhere CLOSE to being as good as the alltimers i've named.

Can you tell me where do yo get this ridiculous notion that 'greats of all eras are more or less equal' ?
I reckon one Harry Paget Flashman would cut it in the modern era, he recorded the first hat-trick of course getting Felix, Pilch and Mynn at Lord's.
 

C_C

International Captain
Ah but the point is, we cannot compare people devoid of the state the society and humankind is at- because we are not God ( if you believe in it/him/her/them that is) and we do not know the exact capabilities of a person.

If Matthew Hayden today was time-teleported back to the 20s, he would most probably decimate the competition, given his much superior fitness, analytical approach to his game and the much higher amount of work he's put into his craft.

You can only compare empirically. That is, Take Hobbs the exact way he was in the 10s and 20s and time-teleport him to the modern era.
Does his game, as it was, stand up to the same level ? No.
Take Hayden and time-teleport him to the 20s just the way he is- does he have a superior game ? Yes.

Therefore, empirically, hobbs isnt as good as hayden.
To bridge the gap and have similar modicum of success at a higher level ( which test cricket in the modern age is- a higher level compared to the 1920s or 1930s), ie, similar or superior performance to the players at the higher level, you need to have a huge gap between players today and your the-then accomplishments.
For you need that cushioning to compensate for the 'shortfall', due to higher standards and still hold you up.
As such, a 56-57 average back in the 20s doesnt meet the requirement compared to a 56-57 average today.
Bradman fulfills the criteria logically and so do a few here and there- like Sid Barnes, Miller, Lindwall, O'Reiley, etc.
But unless you were averaging 70+ or so in the 20s with the bat and 15-16 or so with the ball, you aint gonna be in the same podium as the laras, tendulkars and mcgraths of the world.
 

vic_orthdox

Global Moderator
C_C said:
If Matthew Hayden today was time-teleported back to the 20s, he would most probably decimate the competition, given his much superior fitness, analytical approach to his game and the much higher amount of work he's put into his craft.
The point is, if your going to estimate this much, then what is so facetious about estimating what the result would have been if a Hobbs-type had have come through the current system?

Otherwise, as far as I can see, you may as well be estimating what the best club cricketer in the world would do at Test level.
****
And once the assumption is made that people carry the same attributes with them into modern times like your saying, I don't really dispute what your saying. Just letting you know so that you don't have to make too big a post next time when it's not necessary.

Who says I'm not a giving man? :p
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
FaaipDeOiad said:
Yes, it is really unfair to treat a batsman as if he got out if he didn't. Simply put, you are out when the opposition is good enough to get you out. If you give a chance and it isn't taken, the opposition was not good enough to get you out, hence you keep batting.
Oh, yes, and from the team point-of-view that's all that matters.
For judging batsmen, however, if you just blindly accept that you'll never work-out who was better.
 

shankar

International Debutant
Richard said:
Because A has needed luck to get the opportunity.
Surely you can see that scoring runs before giving chances is better than scoring them after being let-off?
If both of them have had equal no. of first-chances, then it's definitely not as simplistic as you've stated it. Scoring runs before or after being let-off both go towards showing the batsman's quality. A and B both have got second chances. B has done better before getting the chance while A has done better after getting the chance.
 

shankar

International Debutant
Richard said:
If he was out for 120, you mean?
I see what you mean, I always have, and it is a fault, but it's no more fundamental than the fault in the scorebook average where no luck is accounted for whatsoever.
No. Not accounting for luck is not a major flaw because it is common knowledge that most batsmen do get some luck along the way and hence the scorebook average can be taken with a pinch of salt. But treating every little phase between 2 chances as equivalent to a fresh innings is a major flaw that renders the statistic utterly useless.
 

shankar

International Debutant
Richard said:
No, his all-chance average is 35; his first-chance average would be 120.
And is it really that unfair? Shouldn't the batsman be penalised for playing so poorly as to give 4 chances in 20 runs?
Are you really saying that crediting the batsman in Faaip's example with just 35 isnt ridiculous?
 

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