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Botham vs Flintoff

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
shankar said:
No. Not accounting for luck is not a major flaw because it is common knowledge that most batsmen do get some luck along the way and hence the scorebook average can be taken with a pinch of salt. But treating every little phase between 2 chances as equivalent to a fresh innings is a major flaw that renders the statistic utterly useless.
Very, very much an exaggeration.
Batsmen are not attempting to get out, no matter what stage of an innings, so it's certainly not utterly useless.
 

sledger

Spanish_Vicente
well now that the ashes series is done and dusted does anyone care to revise their opinion on the topic of this thread ?
 

Anil

Hall of Fame Member
flintoff has certainly come of age but he has some way to go before matching botham's achievements....
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
well my father the a die hard English fan who has seen Botham throughout his career & Freddie thinks, Flintoff can become better than Botham for these reasons:

- Firstly to him the fact that Freddie has counquered the best team in the world with both bat & ball, something beefy couldn't do even once during his great career says something...

- With regards to bowling, Freddie has evolved into more of a strike than botham were he maintains that throughout the innings, while beefy swung the new ball but later when the ball got older became a more a stock bowler. Add to that he reckons freddie is faster.

- Batting he reckons their strenghts are hard to compare, he speaks about a 6 Botham hit off lillee at OT during the 1981 series has the biggest hit he had ever sen in his life :) , but he reckons Flintoff has a sounder technique. Ultimately pops feels freddie has to repeat & improve on these performaces in this series for the next 5 years & he'll better beefy in every aspect.
 

Shounak

Banned
Flintoff will most probably end up the better cricketer..

Botham will end up the better personality.. I've only read stuff about him, sounds like the biggest champ ever. I don't care too much for the silent cricketer who puts on his whites, plays cricket and walks off. I like cricketers to show some personality on field..
 

Anil

Hall of Fame Member
aussie said:
Ultimately pops feels freddie has to repeat & improve on these performaces in this series for the next 5 years & he'll better beefy in every aspect.
that's the crux of the matter, he has to perform at this level for a much longer period of time before he can be considered as a better cricketer...
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Certainly, if he keeps up this form and performs away from home (esp. in the subcontinent) with both bat and ball, then he can be better than Botham.

But honestly, I think most all rounders are better than the Botham I saw (I only saw him in 91 and 92)
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
shounak said:
Botham will end up the better personality.. I've only read stuff about him, sounds like the biggest champ ever. I don't care too much for the silent cricketer who puts on his whites, plays cricket and walks off. I like cricketers to show some personality on field..
And Flintoff has never done that?!
 

Shounak

Banned
marc71178 said:
And Flintoff has never done that?!
I haven't seen it.. He comes onto the field.. Bowls and Bats (awesomely) and leaves the field..

It just feels to me like there's a lack of colour in cricket.. I much preferred the cricketers I was brought up with, the ones ten years ago..
 

quytst0rm

School Boy/Girl Captain
shounak said:
I haven't seen it.. He comes onto the field.. Bowls and Bats (awesomely) and leaves the field..

It just feels to me like there's a lack of colour in cricket.. I much preferred the cricketers I was brought up with, the ones ten years ago..
I think you have been watching another Flintoff because the Flintoff i know and see if everything you mentioned above and more.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Always got a smile on his face for one.

Then there's things like that little interplay with Hayden on Sunday, and the way he went straight to Brett Lee at the end of the 2nd Test.

Then there's funny moments "Mind the windows"
 

Jono

Virat Kohli (c)
shounak said:
I haven't seen it.. He comes onto the field.. Bowls and Bats (awesomely) and leaves the field..

It just feels to me like there's a lack of colour in cricket.. I much preferred the cricketers I was brought up with, the ones ten years ago..
Are you kidding me? Flintoff is the exact opposite. All the things Marc stated are examples of that. When he went up to Brett Lee after England won the 2nd test, it was one of the best moments of the Ashes. True sportsmanship.

How about the joke he made when it was getting dark in the 5th test, and he asked for lights to be on the stumps so he could see what he was bowling at?

Did you even watch the Ashes?
 

Shounak

Banned
Jono said:
Are you kidding me? Flintoff is the exact opposite. All the things Marc stated are examples of that. When he went up to Brett Lee after England won the 2nd test, it was one of the best moments of the Ashes. True sportsmanship.

How about the joke he made when it was getting dark in the 5th test, and he asked for lights to be on the stumps so he could see what he was bowling at?

Did you even watch the Ashes?
Yeah..

I guess my standard of comparison is a lot different. The cricket I'm after is a lot more colourful then it currently is.. I'm living with my head buried in the mid 90's..

Nothing comes close..
 

Swervy

International Captain
shounak said:
Yeah..

I guess my standard of comparison is a lot different. The cricket I'm after is a lot more colourful then it currently is.. I'm living with my head buried in the mid 90's..

Nothing comes close..
why..what was so special about the mid 90's
 

C_C

International Captain
Swervy said:
why..what was so special about the mid 90's

Arguably apart from mid 70s to mid 80s period, the 90s was the strongest decade for bowling callibre, the pitches were far less tilted in favour of batsmen and cricket was in general more competitive. Today apart from Australia, rest are pretty much mediocre sides ( YES, including England and India) and i cant see any side apart from the modern aussies winning against teams such as RSA of the 90s, Pakistan of the 90s and Australia of the 90s/West Indies of the early 90s on a consistent basis.
 

Swervy

International Captain
C_C said:
Arguably apart from mid 70s to mid 80s period, the 90s was the strongest decade for bowling callibre, the pitches were far less tilted in favour of batsmen and cricket was in general more competitive. Today apart from Australia, rest are pretty much mediocre sides ( YES, including England and India) and i cant see any side apart from the modern aussies winning against teams such as RSA of the 90s, Pakistan of the 90s and Australia of the 90s/West Indies of the early 90s on a consistent basis.
I thought he was talking about the characters of the game though!!!!
 

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