Best ODI batsman?

[Ikki]

dude, this is getting funny now

what finals records are you taking abt?

FYI, Tendulkar averages 53 in finals and Ponting 39 .... Tendulkar is far ahead there

World Cup? The only one that really matters?

 

[Jono]

World Cup? The only one that really matters?

Then seriously, let's not even take into account the rest of their records. If you're going to pretend like the WC is the only thing that matters, than go all the way with it and don't ever include Ponting or Gilchrist's other stats in any discussion relating to ODI cricket ever.

Bevan's pressure knock vs. WI with a 4 off the last ball is useless then.

I guess Tendulkar's innings vs. Kenya in the 2003 WC Semi-Final is a better source of pressure than his two innings vs. Australia in the CB Series finals right?

 

[bagapath]

You don't need a very long argument there.

I do. One world cup final is not enough.

the more you analyze this case the sooner you'll realize how wrong you are. dont repeat one argument until people leave the thread out of boredom. build a case. try. i am sure you'll figure out yourself you dont have one.

 

[Prince EWS]

Yes, I know about this, and if he had played more of his career there with that average, I'd agree with you. The S/R of 70 is low, but the average more than makes up for that. Even overall, his S/R is close to Rahul Dravid. Obviously he is a much better ODI batsman than Dravid, but unlike in Tests, S/R in ODIs plays a part. You need a big average to make up for that.

I fail to see how 53 innings isn't a large enough sample size. regardless of how long the rest of his career actually was. I think it's conclusive evidence to suggest that his record wasn't purely defined by the fact that batted lower down, as he actually achieved his best record higher up.

As for the SR issue, KaZo has stolen my thunder. Within the context of the rest of the Australian batting lineup, he batted as quickly as he had to when chasing - when you have McGrath, Lee and Warne bowling teams out and then Gilchrist knocking over quick runs, the RRR won't be too hefty when you come in, so your SR will be lower. Conversely, yes, your average will be higher, but when you combine all these factors, I still think his exploits at #4 are vastly under-stated.

Don't get me wrong - I voted for Tendulkar as well - but Bevan is regularly left out of alltime XIs by supposed experts and shunned on polls like this, mainly due to what I consider complete myths about him.

 

[ret]

World Cup? The only one that really matters?

and you are taking the 1 game that Ten played

do your self a favor, go and say that to ppl in the real world, brick and mortar world, that Ponting > Tendulkar coz Tendulkar has played in 1 WC final and that too got out chasing 360 odd and see how many take you seriously

 

[Jono]

Its interesting how Ponting coming in at 1-106 after 14 overs against a demoralised and partly inexperienced bowling attack (definitely not used to WC finals) is apparently the peak of pressure. Not to mention with Martyn, Symonds, Lehmann and Bevan (best ever?) still in the shed.

Wonder how that compares to coming out at 0-0 chasing vs. Australia on Australian soil in a tri-series final? On top of that, surrounded by a young team, when you're one of two batsmen that has played on Australian soil before this tour.

 

[Ikki]

Then seriously, let's not even take into account the rest of their records. If you're going to pretend like the WC is the only thing that matters, than go all the way with it and don't ever include Ponting or Gilchrist's other stats in any discussion relating to ODI cricket ever.

Why? The rest of their records shows that Ponting is not far from Tendulkar. Which is fine, but where it matters he is a bit better. I can see why someone would pick Ponting in that case.

Bevan's pressure knock vs. WI with a 4 off the last ball is useless then.

And if he didn't? Would it have been remembered? If it was a WC final it would never be forgotten. That's why one is more important than the other.

I guess Tendulkar's innings vs. Kenya in the 2003 WC Semi-Final is a better source of pressure than his two innings vs. Australia in the CB Series finals right?

I'm sure it wasn't as hard but it was more important. CB series happens how often? How often is the WC? Pretty sure the Kenya inning is the one that really matters.

This is like saying a Carling Cup final between Chelsea and Man Utd was more important than the Semi-Final in the Champions League between teams like Man Utd and Porto. The Carling Cup has the better teams but pales in comparison and in importance to the Champions League Semi-Final. You ask anyone which one they'd rather win and it'd be the latter.

 

[silentstriker]

So basically Gilchrist's career record consists of 31 games with 1 century and 8 fifties, compared to Tendulkar's of 35 innings with 4 centuries and 13 fifties.

Of course, nothing matches Shane Watson, who averages an all time high of 145 in World Cups. Oh, and here is a treat - Shoaib Akhtar averages 76 with the bat in World Cups (no lie, look it up). He's clearly better than Gilchrist, since obviously World Cup batting is all that matters and apparently the sample size is big enough.

 

[Jono]

This is like saying a Carling Cup final between Chelsea and Man Utd was more important than the Semi-Final in the Champions League between teams like Man Utd and Porto. The Carling Cup has the better teams but pales in comparison and in importance to the Champions League Semi-Final.

But if the gun player is subbed on 20 minutes into the Champions League final with his team 3-0 up, I reckon the pressure is off a bit hey?

 

[Jono]

So basically Gilchrist's career record consists of 31 games with 1 century and 8 fifties, compared to Tendulkar's of 35 innings with 4 centuries and 13 fifties.

Of course, nothing matches Shane Watson, who averages an all time high of 145 in World Cups. Oh, and here is a treat - Shoaib Akhtar averages 76 with the bat in World Cups (no lie, look it up). He's clearly better than Gilchrist, since obviously World Cup batting is all that matters and apparently the sample size is big enough.

Pffh, we all know the T20 World Cup shows who the REAL best batsmen are.

Gambhir ftw.

 

[Ikki]

and you are taking the 1 game that Ten played

do your self a favor, go and say that to ppl in the real world, brick and mortar world, that Ponting > Tendulkar coz Tendulkar has played in 1 WC final and that too got out chasing 360 odd and see how many take you seriously

Who is talking about 1 game? I am talking about the whole WC. Ponting does just as well as Tendulkar in the prelims and much better after that. Tendulkar's prelim record looks much better mainly because of two sides - Namibia and Kenya.

Sehwag had to chase 360 too, he didn't get out for 4. Let's not pretend that it was impossible for Tendulkar to rack up about 40 runs at least.

 

[silentstriker]

Who is talking about 1 game? I am talking about the whole WC. Ponting does just as well as Tendulkar in the prelims and much better after that. Tendulkar's prelim record looks much better mainly because of two sides - Namibia and Kenya.

Sehwag had to chase 360 too, he didn't get out for 4. Let's not pretend that it was impossible for Tendulkar to at rack up about 40 runs at least.

The fact that you consider one game as any sort of representation of a 20 year international career consisting of 410 ODI games is totally ridiculous.

 

[silentstriker]

Oh, and Shoaib Akhtar as an S/R of 110 to go along with an average of 76 in World Cups.

 

[Jamee999]

why someone like Gilly does well in the finals can be explained by probability too

in Quater-finals, he averages 29
in the semis, he averages 19
so now whats the probability of him doing well in the final? yes you got it
he averages 37

now let's take the World Cups for Gilly

in the preliminaries, he averages a poor 32
in the semis, a poorer 14!!!
so now whats the probability of him doing well in the final, [yes you again guessed it right], 86!!!


conversely, what are the chances of someone like Tendulkar, who is working like a work-horse and doing all the scoring doing well as the tourney progresses .... exactly, you guessed it right, the probability is going to go down .... But despite this he averages a phenomenal 53 in finals and in the games that India have won a mind blowing 100!! clearly, a true champ and the biggest match-winner ever to have walked on the planet

Yeah, please never talk about probability ever again. You don't understand how it works.

Seriously, by your logic I'd average 100 in WC Finals, as I'd average 0 in quarters and semis

 

[ret]

Bevan has a pretty complete record, vs everyone. Certainly not a matter of poor bowling against him giving him many not outs. The funny thing is that his lowest averages come from Kenya and Namibia - although only 4 innings in total. The rest of the places he averages at least 44. So the bowlers in the worst teams were the most effective against him. He stole runs off everybody else.

His not-outs come from him batting lower down the order. But as Prince showed, even higher up the order he averaged higher than he did when he batted lower.

I didn't say that he has scored against weak bowling so that was a futile excercise^

what i meant is that he wouldn't have been that effective playing for a team which didn't have good bowlers, i.e. the good Aus bowlers made his contributions look good .... the only games that i remember him winning on his own was one against SA and one again in SA

 

[Ikki]

The fact that you consider one game as any sort of representation of a 20 year international career consisting of 410 ODI games is totally ridiculous.

Tendulkar's overall record just shades Ponting's. In fact, what keeps it ahead are his matches against Kenya and Namibia. Otherwise, it is very close. People keep forgetting this part.

HOWEVER, when it comes to the WCs, Ponting IS ahead of Tendulkar. You may wish to say that 1 inning is not indicative of his talent (and I'd agree), but putting that aside we KNOW Ponting has proven himself at that level and so to say he is ahead because of this is not the travesty you are making it out to be.

 

[Ikki]

I didn't say that he has scored against weak bowling so that was a futile excercise^

what i meant is that he wouldn't have been that effective playing for a team which didn't have good bowlers, i.e. the good Aus bowlers made his contributions look good .... the only games that i remember him winning on his own was one against SA and one again in SA

Oh okay, my bad. I'd still disagree. What made Bevan 'Bevan' was when he was chasing runs and his team were in trouble. This negates how good his bowlers were because when he was doing this his fellow batsmen let him down.

 

[ret]

Yeah, please never talk about probability ever again. You don't understand how it works.

Seriously, by your logic I'd average 100 in WC Finals, as I'd average 0 in quarters and semis

if you understand probability like you claim then you would get a decent score if you were like the batsmen we are talking abt here .... if not then the probability of you not getting a zero at least would be high

the 'probability' here works in the same was as heads and tails in a coin .... the more heads you get, the chances of getting a tail increases

 

[ret]

Oh okay, my bad. I'd still disagree. What made Bevan 'Bevan' was when he was chasing runs and his team were in trouble. This negates how good his bowlers were because when he was doing this his fellow batsmen let him down.

so how many times, he chased high scores [so that takes the bowlers out of reckoning] with the chips down?

 

[PhoenixFire]

if you understand probability like you claim then you would if you were like the batsmen we are talking abt here .... if not then the probability of you not getting a zero at least would be high

the 'probability' here works in the same was as heads and tails in a coin .... the more heads you get, the chances of getting a tail increases

Haha no chance mate. There is no such thing as probability in cricket. The batsman could get a good ball one game, and it will have 0 bearing on what will happen next game.