Basil D'Oliviera vs Kevin Pietersen

[Marius]

I just recently read Peter Oborne's biography of Basil D'Oliviera. Overall it was a pretty good book, although there were one or two errors, and he did to an extent tar all white South Africans with the same racist brush. However, the point that I want to raise is that D'Oliviera faced great obstacles to become a Test cricketer, and harboured ambitions to play for South Africa until he was well into his 20s. It was only when he realised as a non-white he would never play Test cricket for South Africa, nor first class cricket in the country, and in fact never be allowed to have a drink in a white club's bar that he looked into the possibility of leaving South Africa and seeking his fortune in England. Pietersen faced one tiny setback, he was kept out of the Natal team because a non-white spinner was picked ahead of him. D'Oliviera would never even be considered for a first class South African team simply because of the colour of his skin. The first time he ever played on turf wickets was when he first played in England - why - because non-whites were given rubbish facilities. Pietersen's rejection of South Africa shows him up for the spoilt brat that he is. It still boggles my mind that one can live 20 years in one country, and change your alleginace to another nation, as if you're changing your underpants. There is no doubt that in South Africa today, if you are good enough you will play for South Africa, no matter the colour of your skin (of the four players who made their Test debuts for SA last season, only one, Tsolekile is not white). There is no doubt in my mind that if Pietersen had stayed in South Africa, who would have played Test cricket by now.

 

[steds]

There is no doubt that in South Africa today, if you are good enough you will play for South Africa, no matter the colour of your skin (of the four players who made their Test debuts for SA last season, only one, Tsolekile is not white).

How can that phrase and that name be in the same sentence?

 

[BoyBrumby]

of the four players who made their Test debuts for SA last season, only one, Tsolekile is not white

Pedantry on my part; but wouldn't Langeveldt be classified as "coloured" under the Apartheid racial classifications?

Aside from that, I'm inclined to agree. It would be totally wrong to compare Pietersen's situation with D'Oliveira's. I think KP has made an essentially a professional decision. He isn't alone in leaving SA to pursue a sporting career in another country's colours (the English Rugby Union team has done v well out of South-African "born" players: Abbott, Horak, Stevens & Catt in recent times have turned out for us), but only Rathbone has had anything like the opprobrium heaped on him. That may be partly KP's confidence rubbing the Saffies up the wrong way or it may be a few of his ill-judged remarks regarding the "Q" word.

My suspicion is tho that it's because he's so damn good!

 

[marc71178]

Jealousy indeed.

He decided to move because he felt he was being discriminated against. End of story.

 

[SpeedKing]

Pedantry on my part; but wouldn't Langeveldt be classified as "coloured" under the Apartheid racial classifications?

Aside from that, I'm inclined to agree. It would be totally wrong to compare Pietersen's situation with D'Oliveira's. I think KP has made an essentially a professional decision. He isn't alone in leaving SA to pursue a sporting career in another country's colours (the English Rugby Union team has done v well out of South-African "born" players: Abbott, Horak, Stevens & Catt in recent times have turned out for us), but only Rathbone has had anything like the opprobrium heaped on him. That may be partly KP's confidence rubbing the Saffies up the wrong way or it may be a few of his ill-judged remarks regarding the "Q" word.

My suspicion is tho that it's because he's so damn good!

I know how i would feel if some guy from my country left because he was ajudged to not be good enough, then come back 5 years later and demolish us. So i will second your suspicion.

Why dont they leave him alone. Its all but 4 months now and they are still bitter, C'mon Marius, you won the series 5-1, just be happy with that

 

[Swervy]

I just recently read Peter Oborne's biography of Basil D'Oliviera. Overall it was a pretty good book, although there were one or two errors, and he did to an extent tar all white South Africans with the same racist brush.

This is the next book I will be reading....what are the inaccuracies in it?

 

[wpdavid]

I don't think anyone could reasonably disagree with Marius' points. As he says, there is a vast difference between the situations facing BD and KP, and I've always viewed the latter's very public bleating as complete tosh, although not quite in the same league as one or two public pronouncements from his mate Clive Rice, who really ought to know better. Of course, once KP found himself one the receiving end of some of the most unpleasant mass venom that I can remember in a sporting arena, I found myself rather more sympathetic towards him, but that doesn't alter the fact that his comments about cricket in SA were massively ill-judged.

 

[badgerhair]

I don't think anyone could reasonably disagree with Marius' points. As he says, there is a vast difference between the situations facing BD and KP, and I've always viewed the latter's very public bleating as complete tosh, although not quite in the same league as one or two public pronouncements from his mate Clive Rice, who really ought to know better. Of course, once KP found himself one the receiving end of some of the most unpleasant mass venom that I can remember in a sporting arena, I found myself rather more sympathetic towards him, but that doesn't alter the fact that his comments about cricket in SA were massively ill-judged.

I'm not so sure about that. In the KP story, there are some conversations to which we have not been privy as far as I know. Specifically, the ones relating to why KP had been dropped and another guy picked instead and whether or not KP had much hope of getting his place back. The atmosphere in SA cricket at the time was febrile, since there was much talk of quotas and the ANC were doing a fair amount of chest-beating, so there was ample room for someone being told effectively "You're crap" to hear "You're the wrong colour". Since KP was at the time seen as a spinner (although he could get a few runs at 8 or 9), they may just have told him that he was going to have to get a lot better to deserve a place in the team (and anyone who's seen his bowling will understand that there was almost certainly immense room for it to improve). If they replied to the question about why the other guy was better by saying that he wasn't but at least he satisfied the government, you can understand why KP might shoot his mouth off the way he did.

Seen from his perspective at that moment, the situation might well have looked a lot more like the way he described it than those of us not in his shoes can see.

Cheers,

Mike

 

[wpdavid]

I'm not so sure about that. In the KP story, there are some conversations to which we have not been privy as far as I know. Specifically, the ones relating to why KP had been dropped and another guy picked instead and whether or not KP had much hope of getting his place back. The atmosphere in SA cricket at the time was febrile, since there was much talk of quotas and the ANC were doing a fair amount of chest-beating, so there was ample room for someone being told effectively "You're crap" to hear "You're the wrong colour". Since KP was at the time seen as a spinner (although he could get a few runs at 8 or 9), they may just have told him that he was going to have to get a lot better to deserve a place in the team (and anyone who's seen his bowling will understand that there was almost certainly immense room for it to improve). If they replied to the question about why the other guy was better by saying that he wasn't but at least he satisfied the government, you can understand why KP might shoot his mouth off the way he did.

Seen from his perspective at that moment, the situation might well have looked a lot more like the way he described it than those of us not in his shoes can see.

Cheers,

Mike

You're a kinder person that I am Mike. Even allowing for the fact that KP was barely out of shorts when things changed over there, I don't think it should have been beyond him to see the bigger picture in the unique situation that is modern SA. And, as you & others have said, KP was a pretty ordinary player in those days, so there doesn't appear to have been that much room for complaint. From where I'm sat, it seems that it isn't that hard for white players to make it into the national side if they're remotely good enough, but there you go.

As you said, I'm not in his shoes, to be fair. My guess is he was just repeating what was being said round his kitchen table and in the sort of circles inhabited by Rice & co, so perhaps I shouldn't expect much more from him.

 

[Langeveldt]

What really grates is the way Pietersen wasn't even very good when he did his whiny move to the UK..
Its a bit weird slagging him off from this side of the Limpopo, but I know if I was in Pietersen's boots I wouldn't be shouting.. I'd have my head down because one day he will probably meet his match, and he might be wearing green and gold.. And it might not be Aussie green and gold..

As for "oppertunities".. From what I've seen, white sportsmen in South Africa have available to them the best facilities and climate in the world.. And it hasn't done Smith and de Villiers a lot of harm..

Whats the reaction been like in SA Marius? I can imagine him going down like a lead balloon in the bars in Bloemfontein And thats just the hair!

 

[Swervy]

I dont really see the big deal..the guy made a decision probably based on the fact he would more likely make a better living playing for a team which picks SOLELY on talent...its his choice, and I am sure he is 100% committed to helping the England cricket team succeed. The guy served his qualification period...if he appears to be going over the top with all this 'Englishness' stuff, well its probably only a reaction to all the crap that is spouted about him by the South Africans.

I dont seem to remember a comotion when Wessels played for Australia, or when Lamb and the the two Smiths played for England. Those three players thought, correctly, they would have better chances of playing at the higher level by playing for countries other than SA (the fact that SA werent playing at the highest level is almost irrelevent..the situation is just more extreme for these players than what Pietersen , rightly or wrongly, perceived himself).

Did anyone really doubt Lambs committment to the England team??? No..in fact Lamb was completely embraced by the English public.

I am sure that if SA werent slowly going down the tubes compared to where they were 5 years ago, and if England were crap, there wouldnt be any fuss whatsoever

Time to get over it

 

[BoyBrumby]

I don't know if anyone saw May's Spin magazine, but it had an interview with Pietersen in it. He was asked who he'd wanted to play for as a child & he was honest enough to reply,

"Growing up I always wanted to play for South Africa. But mum's very English and there was a strong English element at home. So I always had the English bird on my shoulder. It was always in the family.
As time went on my allegiances swung towards England and I'm really happy they did because at the moment I couldn't be happier."

Ironically in the same edition Allan Lamb was asked if he ever thought of playing for South Africa & he replied,

"I've always made it very clear that if South Africa had remained in the international fold I'd have stayed there."

So in his 70-odd tests for us dear old Lamby was only flying a flag of convenience!

 

[Dasa]

I dont seem to remember a comotion when Wessels played for Australia, or when Lamb and the the two Smiths played for England. Those three players thought, correctly, they would have better chances of playing at the higher level by playing for countries other than SA (the fact that SA werent playing at the highest level is almost irrelevent..the situation is just more extreme for these players than what Pietersen , rightly or wrongly, perceived himself).

How is that irrelevant? They had to move to play at the highest level, Pietersen didn't.
From my point of view (not English or South African), it looks like Pietersen simply wasn't good enough when he was in South Africa, moved and improved, and is now taking the opportunity to whinge when he has nothing to really whinge about. He doesn't seem to me to be the type of guy who would be sensitive enough to understand post-Apartheid South Africa either...

 

[badgerhair]

You're a kinder person that I am Mike. Even allowing for the fact that KP was barely out of shorts when things changed over there, I don't think it should have been beyond him to see the bigger picture in the unique situation that is modern SA. And, as you & others have said, KP was a pretty ordinary player in those days, so there doesn't appear to have been that much room for complaint. From where I'm sat, it seems that it isn't that hard for white players to make it into the national side if they're remotely good enough, but there you go.

As you said, I'm not in his shoes, to be fair. My guess is he was just repeating what was being said round his kitchen table and in the sort of circles inhabited by Rice & co, so perhaps I shouldn't expect much more from him.

II just don't think a player who's finding it difficult to get into a provincial team is going to up sticks and go to England to try and seek his fortune without some serious stimulus. There was no guarantee that he'd even make it in county cricket. From somewhere, he had to have got the pretty strong impression that he had very little future in KwaZulu-Natal and that burning his boats was the only way to go. It's not something you just wake up in the morning and decide to do because it's raining. I'd like to know what it was, really.

Cheers,

Mike

 

[Swervy]

How is that irrelevant? They had to move to play at the highest level, Pietersen didn't.
From my point of view (not English or South African), it looks like Pietersen simply wasn't good enough when he was in South Africa, moved and improved, and is now taking the opportunity to whinge when he has nothing to really whinge about. He doesn't seem to me to be the type of guy who would be sensitive enough to understand post-Apartheid South Africa either...

But the point is KP felt he did have to move to play at the highest level

 

[Langeveldt]

How is that irrelevant? They had to move to play at the highest level, Pietersen didn't.
From my point of view (not English or South African), it looks like Pietersen simply wasn't good enough when he was in South Africa, moved and improved, and is now taking the opportunity to whinge when he has nothing to really whinge about. He doesn't seem to me to be the type of guy who would be sensitive enough to understand post-Apartheid South Africa either...

In a nutshell..

 

[Swervy]

In a nutshell..

but KP felt he had to move to play at the highest level....it is in fact only different in the degree of discriminatory selection policy, but the fact remains that KP thought that black (or whatever race) players would benefit from the quota system, whereas , he, as a white fella, wouldnt. He didnt think that was fair and beleived he would make a better living in England..in much the same way as Wessels and Lamb, and Chris Smith did

 

[Langeveldt]

but KP felt he had to move to play at the highest level....it is in fact only different in the degree of discriminatory selection policy, but the fact remains that KP thought that black (or whatever race) players would benefit from the quota system, whereas , he, as a white fella, wouldnt. He didnt think that was fair and beleived he would make a better living in England..in much the same way as Wessels and Lamb, and Chris Smith did

Despite Goolam Bodi being a better spinner he felt he was being discriminated against? Fair enough

 

[Richard]

I don't think anyone could reasonably disagree with Marius' points. As he says

He?

 

[wpdavid]

He?

Oh well, you learn something every day. Happy to keep you amused Rich.