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All-time XI's (uber-nerd content).

oitoitoi

State Vice-Captain
Armstrong was the premier bat in the world in his day, fantastic bowler as well (in terms of bowling all day and giving away virtually nothing) though it came out more in FC level where the side relied on him more. From memory the stats don't tell the whole story due to him playing on past his peak and also missing vital a tour during his peak due to the Big 6 fiasco.

Off the top of my head, would have pre-war:

Trumper
Ponsford
Bradman
McCabe
Hill
Armstrong
J. Gregory/ Noble
Blackham
O'Reilly
Grimmett
Fred Spofforth

Post war:

Hayden
Lawry
Ponting
Chappell
Harvey
Miller
Gilchrist
Warne
Lindwall
Lillee
McGarth
Lol sorry I'm confusing Armstrong with Ironmonger!

Considered him, you might well be right, but I suppose with all these kinds of threads, we'll never know really. Also I was slightly prejudiced against him due to his weight, how the hell could he shift quickly enough against 90mph bowling I'll never know.
 

pasag

RTDAS
Lol sorry I'm confusing Armstrong with Ironmonger!

Considered him, you might well be right, but I suppose with all these kinds of threads, we'll never know really. Also I was slightly prejudiced against him due to his weight, how the hell could he shift quickly enough against 90mph bowling I'll never know.
Have read he was very fit! Not only did he bowl for innings at time (often bowling 50 or so overs at a time) but also had to run all of his runs (didn't have ropes or fences so you got whatever you ran) and would put a lot of the younger, leaner players to shame.
 

oitoitoi

State Vice-Captain
Have read he was very fit! Not only did he bowl for innings at time (often bowling 50 or so overs at a time) but also had to run all of his runs (didn't have ropes or fences so you got whatever you ran) and would put a lot of the younger, leaner players to shame.
Didn't know about him having to run so much, begs the question of how he maintained such an enormous weight! Didn't he smoke too?
 

rivera213

U19 Vice-Captain
On the strength of the limited available footage, of which you admit to only having seen part, how can you possibly say this with any confidence? Unless you allow yourself to be swayed by contemporary accounts, of course.
Na, I've probably seen all the footage available (though not as much quality recording of Bradman in a match I'd like). But what I've seen has been enough compared to the whole career of Ponting to see he was the better batsman and more adaptable. I've never doubted Bradman's ability as a batsman, only the 99.94 average in comparison tho the great players of future eras.

Ponting has had a great career, he's not a bad player by any means but he just doesn't have the same level of talent Bradman had from what I've seen.

I'm never swayed by hear'say, "reports", and other articles by journalists- I always check myself and then if they match with articles I've read so be it. You can tell by Bradman's incredible footwork that the reports of the bodyline series were true. The footage available (not just that on You Tube. :laugh: ) show us with extreme leg-side fields so there's nothing to doubt really (though of course, his legend has been buffed up to God level!).


Rivera regarding the WI XI no George Headley? Regarding South Africa I'd put Vince van der Bijl in there ahead of Ntini even though he never played a test. I would not like to face that Pakistani bowling attack, or the West Indian one at that. Don't think having Cowdrey in your post 1970 XI is right considering he was well past his best by that stage (no 100's and just 1 50 vs NZ).
RE Headley: The little footage I've seen of him has been impressive (black Bradman and all that...) but I can't put him ahead of Viv (who I've seen loads of, easily the best player to short fast bowling and the best leg side player I've seen) and Lara (who I've seen 99% of the career of and is 1 of, if not the best WI batsman ever), or even ahead of Lloyd who's in the team for both his captaincy and batting.

RE South Africa: vd Bijl's record is hard to argue with (750+ wickets @ 16 is better than Procter) and I personally wouldn't want to face a man of 6'8" bowling very accurate 85mph deliveries at me (call me stupid! Ha ha), but the record of a bowler who will end up with 400+ test wickets, especially since the majority of his career has been played on flat batsmen-friendly tracks. What would've been the SA side through the 70's (Richards, Barlow, G.Pollock, Procter, vd Bijl...) would've been a force, especially since none of those peaked by the time they were excluded from international cricket!

RE Cowdrey: Oh na, it's not a player's record in 1970- it's the era. Cowdrey played in the era which includes 1970 (just like Sobers played into the 70's). Of course, I'd have the Cowdrey of '57-67. Sorry for the confusion.


Makes it sound like you think he got injured on purpose.
Not at all, his back injuries are killers for a fast bowler and there's no legislation for injuries. Perhaps he always had an injury of sorts, but I can't help comparing him to Robin van Persie needing to be 100% fit to bowl and whenever he was fit, ODI's were his priority. I know New Zealand viewed themselves as a ODI team moreso than a test team, but Bond should've been restricted (or restricted himself) to 1 form of cricket.

It's probably not entirely his fault (the NZ board more than likely pressured him to play both forms) so maybe I'm being harsh on him. He mentioned himself that there was a lot of **** going on at board level. If it was the board's fault, then that's unforgivable.

I've always been a fan of his, people compare his with Dale Steyn but for me there's no comparison.
 

stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
SOUTH AFRICA:
Barry Richards
Graeme Smith (just ahead of Eddie Barlow)
Jacques Kallis
Graeme Pollock
Daryll Cullinan
Jonty Rhodes
Mark Boucher
Mike Procter
Shaun Pollock
Makhaya Ntini
Allan Donald
I suggest you do a little reading on a middle order batsman named Dudley Nourse. He easily makes this team ahead of Cullinan and Rhodes as a batsman. He's probably better than Kallis as well for that matter.
 

Matt79

Hall of Fame Member
Done these all elsewhere in the past, but don't mind doing them again:
England:
Hobbs
Hutton
Hobbs
Compton
Grace
Ames
Botham
Trueman
Laker
Bedser
Barnes

Australia:
Simpson
Trumper (my openers change everytime I do the Aussie team)
Bradman
G. Chappell
Harvey
Miller
Gilchrist
Warne
Lindwall
Lillee
McGrath

WI:
Fredricks
Greenidge
Headley
Lara
Richards
Sobers
Dujon
Marshall
Holding
Garner
Ambrose

India:
Gavaskar
Sehwag
Dravid
Tendulkar
Hazare
Dhoni
Kapil Dev
Kumble
Srinath
Chandraseker
Bedi

Pakistan:
Hanif Mohammad
Saeed Anwar
Zaheer Abbas
Javed Miandad
Inzamam Ul-Haq
Imran Khan
Wasim Akram
Wasim Bari
Saqlain Mushtaq
Waqar Younis
Fazal Mahmoud

South Africa:
Smith
Richards
Nourse
Kallis
Pollock, G
Faulkner
Procter
Cameron
Pollock, S.
Steyn/Adcock
Donald

SL:
Jayasuriya
Attapattu
Sangakkara
De Silva, Aravinda
Jayawardena, M.
Ranatunga
Kalu+ (I think its more important for the team to have Kumar focused on batting, for it to be competitive)
Vaas
Malinga?
Zoysa
Murali


off the top of my head.
 

Matt79

Hall of Fame Member
I suggest you do a little reading on a middle order batsman named Dudley Nourse. He easily makes this team ahead of Cullinan and Rhodes as a batsman. He's probably better than Kallis as well for that matter.
Read up on Aubrey Faulkner as well, while you're at it. The number 6 slot becomes fairly simple after that, IMO.
 

rivera213

U19 Vice-Captain
I suggest you do a little reading on a middle order batsman named Dudley Nourse. He easily makes this team ahead of Cullinan and Rhodes as a batsman. He's probably better than Kallis as well for that matter.
I like how you assume I dont know about Nourse just because he isn't in my team. Laughable.

Anyways, Rhodes is in the team not only because he's a quality lower middle-order batsman, but also because he is 1 of, if not THE best outfielder I've seen. I pick my XI's based on being a "real life" team and his fielding helped South Africa immensely.

Cullinan's stats don't do him justice as a batsman. He failed against Australia (Warne in particular, but Warne is the best spinner of all time in many people's opinions so no shame in that), though only 7 tests. He averaged 40+ against every team he batted 15+ innings against and he also scored a century in just over every 8 innings and he played in a bowling era. That's not bad.

As for Kallis, he has a better average than Nourse (at both test and first class level), has a similar conversion rate and has 1 less inning per century than Nourse (Kallis' at test level and Nourse at FC) in 3.5 times more innings (admittedly, Nourse wasn't to blame for WWII). There's absolutely no comparison to be made, especially considering Kallis bowls (258 wickets @ 31 with a sub-3 economy rate) and has played 277 ODI innings.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Read up on Aubrey Faulkner as well, while you're at it. The number 6 slot becomes fairly simple after that, IMO.
I'd have Clive Rice ahead of Faulkner @ 6. Plus Tayfield as the spinner, because given the amount a quicks SA would have. Tayfield accurate offies suits them better, instead of the MacGill style leg-spin of Faulkner.
 

rivera213

U19 Vice-Captain
Rivera why do you have Border opening?
Tactics. He could play some shots but was very good defensively too. I think him and Langer would make a good partnership, Border could play his natural game (SR around 45-50). With Bradman, G.Chappell, S.Waugh, Miller and Gilchrist following them, he wouldn't need to worry about upping the RR.

Basically, I'm a crap captain in waiting. :laugh:
 

Dissector

International Debutant
Vinoo Mankad is an automatic pick for India IMO.

Gavaskar
Sehwag
Dravid
Tendulkar
Hazare
Mankad
Kapil
Kirmani
Kumble
Srinath
Prasanna
 

Evermind

International Debutant
Anyways, Rhodes is in the team not only because he's a quality lower middle-order batsman, but also because he is 1 of, if not THE best outfielder I've seen.
DeVilliers over Rhodes: equally good fielder, and far better batsman.
 

Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
Off the top of my head- would be interesting to see how this differs from the last one I did-

South Africa
1. B. Richards
2. B. Mitchell
3. G. Pollock
4. Kallis
5. AD Nourse
6. Faulkner
7. Lindsay (wkt)
8. S. Pollock
9. Proctor
10. P. Pollock
11. Donald

Deepest batting ever and at least 6 bowlers, if not more.

SA 'A'
1. E. Barlow
2. G. Smith
3. Cullinan
4. K. Wessels
5. Goddard
6. H. Taylor
7. Boucher wkt
8. Vince van der Bijl
9. Tayfield
10. Adcock
11. Ntini

Kirsten bros + others unlucky to miss out.
 
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stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I like how you assume I dont know about Nourse just because he isn't in my team. Laughable.

Anyways, Rhodes is in the team not only because he's a quality lower middle-order batsman, but also because he is 1 of, if not THE best outfielder I've seen. I pick my XI's based on being a "real life" team and his fielding helped South Africa immensely.

Cullinan's stats don't do him justice as a batsman. He failed against Australia (Warne in particular, but Warne is the best spinner of all time in many people's opinions so no shame in that), though only 7 tests. He averaged 40+ against every team he batted 15+ innings against and he also scored a century in just over every 8 innings and he played in a bowling era. That's not bad.

As for Kallis, he has a better average than Nourse (at both test and first class level), has a similar conversion rate and has 1 less inning per century than Nourse (Kallis' at test level and Nourse at FC) in 3.5 times more innings (admittedly, Nourse wasn't to blame for WWII). There's absolutely no comparison to be made, especially considering Kallis bowls (258 wickets @ 31 with a sub-3 economy rate) and has played 277 ODI innings.
Sure Rhodes is a ridiculously good fielder, but is that going to make up for the fact that he's not in the same league of batsman as Nourse? Cullinan was an accomplished batsman but is so far behind Nourse it isn't even funny.

As for Kallis vs Nourse, the match up is arguable in both directions. However, Nourse lost his best years to WWII, captained SA to their second test match win ever and made a hundred on a sticky. Kallis has benefited by being in both a better team and an easier era for batting. It's no coincidence that Kallis has a worse record against Australia than anyone else.

IMO Nourse is the 4th pick batsman behind Richards, Pollock and Kallis, who is ahead of Nourse because of his bowling. Let us not forget that Nourse played in teams where most batsmen averaged in the 20s and 30s. He truly was a standout pick for SA.

My SA XI:

Richards
Smith
Nourse
G Pollock
Kallis
Faulkner
Boucher
S Pollock
Adcock
Tayfield
Donald

I have Smith in over Mitchell as I feel his career will end up being one of the most successful in history. He already has piles of runs at a great average. Tayfield is the full time spinner, Pollock, Adcock and Donald the three quicks that stand out to me. Backup bowling options include Faulkner and Kallis, both of which were exceptional allrounders. Boucher has to get the gloves. He's got more wickets and runs than any other keeper. He's also fifth on the all-time South African runs list!
 

stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
As for other countries, I'll only do Aus and WI now because they're who I've been looking at most recently.

Aus:

Hayden
Trumper
Bradman
Chappell
Ponting
Gilchrist
Miller
Warne
O'Reilly/Davidson (depending on the pitch)
Lillee
McGrath

WI:

Greenidge
Hunte
Headley
Lara
Richards
Sobers
Dujon
Marshall
Garner
Holding
Ambrose

To be honest, the only other all time XI that would be competative with the three I've already listed would be the England XI. And I don't know enough about English players to make a call on that.
 

Manee

Cricketer Of The Year
Off the top of my head- would be interesting to see how this differs from the last one I did-

South Africa
1. B. Richards
2. B. Mitchell
3. G. Pollock
4. Kallis
5. AD Nourse
6. Faulkner
7. Lindsay (wkt)
8. S. Pollock
9. Proctor
10. P. Pollock
11. Donald

Deepest batting ever and at least 6 bowlers, if not more.

SA 'A'
1. E. Barlow
2. G. Smith
3. Cullinan
4. K. Wessels
5. Goddard
6. H. Taylor
7. Boucher wkt
8. Vince van der Bijl
9. Tayfield
10. Adcock
11. Ntini

Kirsten bros + others unlucky to miss out.
Liking both the teams but would be inclined to go with Steyn over Ntini. Ntini is very inconsistent and often toothless away from home.
 

Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
Liking both the teams but would be inclined to go with Steyn over Ntini. Ntini is very inconsistent and often toothless away from home.
There is a fair logic to that. I just cant, personally, include a 25 yr old in an all-time XI when he has over half his career to still play.
 

rivera213

U19 Vice-Captain
Sure Rhodes is a ridiculously good fielder, but is that going to make up for the fact that he's not in the same league of batsman as Nourse?
I'd hope that between Richards, Kallis and Pollock can get enough runs that 35 extra with his awesome fielding would be more beneficial than 50 without the awesome fielding.

I'm sure the bowlers in the team would rather Jonty at backward point than anyone else in the history of cricket.

Plus, the side bats down to Shaun Pollock, I think I've enough. Nourse record is certainly better than Cullinan, but I can't get over how pissed off Murali looked after his battles with him. :laugh:


As for Kallis vs Nourse, the match up is arguable in both directions. However, Nourse lost his best years to WWII, captained SA to their second test match win ever and made a hundred on a sticky. Kallis has benefited by being in both a better team and an easier era for batting. It's no coincidence that Kallis has a worse record against Australia than anyone else.
Ja, but then a lot of batsmen have their worst record against Australia. It's hard to say whether or not Nourse would average more than Kallis against McGrath, Gillespe & Warne.


IMO Nourse is the 4th pick batsman behind Richards, Pollock and Kallis, who is ahead of Nourse because of his bowling. Let us not forget that Nourse played in teams where most batsmen averaged in the 20s and 30s. He truly was a standout pick for SA.
For sure, Nourse was the best of his time in SA, there's no debate in that. It's hard to compare cross-eras though. I's something I don't like to do in general.


My SA XI:

Richards
Smith
Nourse
G Pollock
Kallis
Faulkner
Boucher
S Pollock
Adcock
Tayfield
Donald

I have Smith in over Mitchell as I feel his career will end up being one of the most successful in history. He already has piles of runs at a great average. Tayfield is the full time spinner, Pollock, Adcock and Donald the three quicks that stand out to me. Backup bowling options include Faulkner and Kallis, both of which were exceptional allrounders. Boucher has to get the gloves. He's got more wickets and runs than any other keeper. He's also fifth on the all-time South African runs list!
Interesting you went for a spinner (presumably over Mike Procter?).

With Faulkner in the team, I would've probably left out Tayfield and put in Procter being as the majority of tests will be played in SA on seamer friendly wickets (**** the nowadays batsmen-friendly strips, bring back the bounce!).

You have the bowling Nourse in there as well. Ha ha.

Boucher is very underrated. I can't remember him dropping an easy catch, he's taken some blinders & has had to keep wicket to some genuinely quick bowlers. That on it's own is impressive, but he also averages 30 with the bat! It's sod's law he played in the same era as Adam Gilchrist.
 

Matt79

Hall of Fame Member
Reckon I might revise my standrad Aussie alltime XI thusly:
Hayden
Simpson
Bradman
G.Chappell
Ponting
S.Waugh
Gilchrist
Miller
Warne
Lillee
McGrath

Gilly at seven and Miller at eight makes for amazing batting depth. And four specialist bowlers of that calibre is enough, with Waugh or Simpson able to fill in for a spell if required.
 

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