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All-Time World XIs: Discussion Thread

Randomfan

U19 Vice-Captain
There's no evidence McGrath's presence had any effect on his team's fortunes, same for Imran.
That's not true. McGrath not playing cut Aus W/L in half. Evidence of MCGrath having an impact on team's fortune does exist.

Issue comes when comparing the impact of players playing with two different teams. That's harder to do objectively. That's more of a subjective judgement.
 

Thala_0710

International Captain
I reckon the best way to calculate this would be, if theoretically all required data is available, is to take the bookies' odds and see by how much a player changes the win% of a team over the course of their career. That's the only thing I can think of which could measure this impact somewhat accurately
Or if someone could make a really good win predictor and run it for all those matches, it could be instead of bookies' data
 

Thala_0710

International Captain
That's not true. McGrath not playing cut Aus W/L in half. Evidence of MCGrath having an impact on team's fortune does exist.

Issue comes when comparing the impact of players playing with two different teams. That's harder to do objectively. That's more of a subjective judgement.
You need to factor in against who and where were the matches missed as well... For the last 10-15 tests, India's results are much better without Bumrah than with him. The reason being they play without him mostly at home, where the spin friendly pitches suit them, and with him away against tough opposition, + there has been some real dumb bad luck even away, like these tests vs England. So that necessarily doesn't give the right picture.
Mcgrath's impact on Australia's dominance is undeniable. He was their best player. But the metric being used is a bit wrong imo for this purpose.
 

peterhrt

First Class Debutant
His captaincy often gets glossed over due to the focus on his batting, as one might expect. Its hard to find much of an article mentioning too much about his captaincy, let alone one focusing on it. Perhaps @peterhrt would know more.
The main criticism of Bradman's captaincy came after his first two Tests in charge, both of which were lost, leaving Australia 2-0 down in the 1936-37 series. Four players appeared before the board accused of not supporting the captain. Some members of the team wanted to play under McCabe. Alan Fairfax claimed that Bradman was too focused on his own game to look after his players' welfare and get the best out of them, like Armstrong and Woodfull had done. After the series was turned around most of this was forgotten.

When England piled up over 900 at The Oval in 1938, Bradman earned praise by supporting his team cheerfully and sympathetically in the field, even bringing himself on to bowl. Sutcliffe urged Hutton to go on and beat Bradman's first-class record of 452*. In those days touring captains were expected to deliver many speeches. Bradman was a very good speaker but it took a lot out of him, and he was adamant that 1938 would be his last tour of England. But for the war it would have been. He was due to captain Australia in New Zealand in 1940, with one Test in Christchurch.

After the war Bradman was reluctant to play again. He was not in good health and there was plenty of money on offer elsewhere. One motivation was the prospect of being the first captain to go through a tour of England unbeaten in first-class matches. This he achieved with methods some found unpalatable in the climate of the time, crushing county sides with what appeared unnecessary ruthlessness. But he now had his team fully behind him, apart from the odd act of insubordination from Miller. Tactically he was sharp and gave his opponents nothing.

Overall his captaincy was rated highly, perhaps only behind Noble and Benaud among Australians. There have also been claims that Border's impact as captain was more significant.
 

Randomfan

U19 Vice-Captain
You need to factor in against who and where were the matches missed as well... For the last 10-15 tests, India's results are much better without Bumrah than with him. The reason being they play without him mostly at home, where the spin friendly pitches suit them, and with him away against tough opposition, + there has been some real dumb bad luck even away, like these tests vs England. So that necessarily doesn't give the right picture.
Mcgrath's impact on Australia's dominance is undeniable. He was their best player. But the metric being used is a bit wrong imo for this purpose.
Yah, I did think of it. It only works if sample size is normal and big one for two players. Bumrah's case is unique, he simply has been playing most games on away tough tours. That's not the norm for most players. Hypothetically, if Bumrah plays 125 tests like McGrath, luck/condition factor should even out. Realistically he is never going to play 125 tests, just using it as an example.

Anyway, it will have flaws as you pointed out.
 

kyear2

Hall of Fame Member
It should not be a factor. It's not a reason or anything approaching a point.

It's simply your sugarcoated bias for not favoring players from weaker teams.
Well there I vehemently disagree.

If you disregard winning, that what the hell are we doing. Stat accumulation?

Nah.

Bowlers are the match winners and drivers of dynasties, if they accomplish it, you'll get credit for it.
 

capt_Luffy

Hall of Fame Member
That's not true. McGrath not playing cut Aus W/L in half. Evidence of MCGrath having an impact on team's fortune does exist.

Issue comes when comparing the impact of players playing with two different teams. That's harder to do objectively. That's more of a subjective judgement.
Speculation and correlation-causation. Bottomline, none of it is proof.
 

Coronis

Hall of Fame Member
Well there I vehemently disagree.

If you disregard winning, that what the hell are we doing. Stat accumulation?

Nah.

Bowlers are the match winners and drivers of dynasties, if they accomplish it, you'll get credit for it.
So batsmen are footnotes. Explains why a batting allrounder rises significantly higher than a bowling allrounder would for you.
 

kyear2

Hall of Fame Member
So batsmen are footnotes. Explains why a batting allrounder rises significantly higher than a bowling allrounder would for you.
You'll are acting like I'm saying that this is a major factor in ratings. It was a small footnote at the end of a detailed post.

And I didn't say a batting all rounder ranked higher than a bowling all rounders, far less significantly.
 

Randomfan

U19 Vice-Captain
You'll are acting like I'm saying that this is a major factor in ratings. It was a small footnote at the end of a detailed post.

And I didn't say a batting all rounder ranked higher than a bowling all rounders, far less significantly.
Bowlers win tests.

Batsmen win limited overs.

A team usually has to pick 20 wickets to win tests and outbowl the opposition.
In limited overs, a team can pick zero wickets and win by outbatting the opposition.

Now some one may start lecturing that you need bowlers and batsmen both to perform to win and miss the point totally.
 

centurymaker

Cricketer Of The Year
Probably you need to get yourself literate with the term illiterate.
Put on ignore forever to keep your cw feed healthy. Initially not only starts the instigation with a personal tirade (in reply to 70s cricket) but then starts using the most unfortunate foul language, going down to whatever extent to try to prove some points to random people. It's not a huge shock as we have seen this line of posting in player comparisons, but probably a good idea to never to see it again.
 
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Johan

Hall of Fame Member
Instigates it and then can't take it back, classic. Rather than gaslighting, I suggest you work on your ability to participate in discussions, you won't have to cry wolf then.
 
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Johan

Hall of Fame Member
Well there I vehemently disagree.

If you disregard winning, that what the hell are we doing. Stat accumulation?

Nah.

Bowlers are the match winners and drivers of dynasties, if they accomplish it, you'll get credit for it.
How is Sobers better than Imran if batsmen are not the match winners?
 

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