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All-Time World XIs: Discussion Thread

Coronis

Coronis

Hall of Fame Member
Randomfan said:
I just pulled results for only IK. I did not bother to look for Hadlee.

During IK's career,

Pakistan W/L when IK did not play - 1.2
Pakistan W/L when IK did play - 1.5


It seems, IK did not have more impact on their team's fortune than McGrath.

There is some noise in this data because IK career was long one, but there is very little evidence to suggest that IK had more impact on his team's fotune compared to McGrath. McGrath elevated W/L to above 4. Yes, team was doing it near 2 without him but doubling from such a hgh level shows an outsized impact.

Team relying on one player can be different than player having outsized impact in winning games. I do agree that if you are playing with great team then similar effrots will result in wins vs loss/draws. For example, Last 2 5-fers of Bumrah would have came in wins if he was playing with a better team. Both tests were lost due to batting collapsing. So it can get hard to compare.

It can be hard to compare this aspect. It's much easier to compare individual output without tieing it with team result.
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Its not a great metric. Based on this you could argue Bradman had zero impact on Australia winning, since the W/L is 2.5 both with and without him.
 
R

Randomfan

U19 Vice-Captain
sayon basak said:
@Randomfan post the ratios.
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I don't think any ratio will capture it when players are playign for different teams. We could surely say that Mcgrath had far more impact than Warne for Aus.

It gets tricky when we try to do it for different countries because we are mixing individual with team's results with different set of players. Since Mcgrath and Warne played with the same team mates, looking at W/L for them can give some clue. As soon as we start looking at different countries and player combination, not sure it conveys much.

For example, despite IK's one looking 1.2 vs 1.5, I think his impact was surely far more than this ratio suggest. I am sure, if I spend time I can find some vastly inderior player having 1.2 vs 1.5 for some country + player conbination. Not very meaningful in my opinion.

I think it's more of a subjective call.
 
subshakerz

subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Randomfan said:
I don't think any ratio will capture it when players are playign for different teams. We could surely say that Mcgrath had far more impact than Warne for Aus.

It gets tricky when we try to do it for different countries because we are mixing individual with team's results with different set of players. Since Mcgrath and Warne played with the same team mates, looking at W/L for them can give some clue. As soon as we start looking at different countries and player combination, not sure it conveys much.

For example, despite IK's one looking 1.2 vs 1.5, I think his impact was surely far more than this ratio suggest. I am sure, if I spend time I can find some vastly inderior player having 1.2 vs 1.5 for some country + player conbination. Not very meaningful in my opinion.

I think it's more of a subjective call.
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It shows this is an incorrect measure to use, and you should probably have not used it to make your Warne McGrath point too.
 
subshakerz

subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Randomfan said:
Team relying on one player can be different than player having outsized impact in winning games. I do agree that if you are playing with great team then similar effrots will result in wins vs loss/draws. For example, Last 2 5-fers of Bumrah would have came in wins if he was playing with a better team. Both tests were lost due to batting collapsing. So it can get hard to compare.
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This is such a basic point that renders your entire statistical comparison irrelevant but didn't stop you from already making a declaration about Imran.
 
R

Randomfan

U19 Vice-Captain
Coronis said:
Its not a great metric. Based on this you could argue Bradman had zero impact on Australia winning, since the W/L is 2.5 both with and without him.
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There is nothing wrong in stating that Bradman did not change the W/L for his team with his presence or absence. That's factually true based on what you are sharing.

But I don't think it tells a lot about Bradman when trying to compare him with some one else as a player. If Bradman was playing with really poor team then his presence and absence would have made a difference in W/L. Anyway, I agree that it's not that great of metric to focus much. Mixing team and individual record gets tough.
 
R

Randomfan

U19 Vice-Captain
subshakerz said:
It shows this is an incorrect measure to use, and you should probably have not used it to make your Warne McGrath point too.
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It's make sense in Warne and Mcgrath. Both bowled for the same team, same oppositions and same time. This as as close as you can get to see an impact of player when mixing team result with individual result.
 
subshakerz

subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
kyear2 said:
Yes, yes it is.

Because you're being silly now.

Was it ever cited as a simple reason, or one of many factors that goes into his ranking.

Something he gets a little bit of extra credit for?
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It should not be a factor. It's not a reason or anything approaching a point.

It's simply your sugarcoated bias for not favoring players from weaker teams.
 
Thala_0710

Thala_0710

International Captain
I reckon the best way to calculate this would be, if theoretically all required data is available, is to take the bookies' odds and see by how much a player changes the win% of a team over the course of their career. That's the only thing I can think of which could measure this impact somewhat accurately
 
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