All-Time World XIs: Discussion Thread

[Johan]

@Prince EWS help us with Barnes.

 

[Thala_0710]

Ambrose has basically sealed his position, Steyn vs Barnes will go right down to the wire

 

[kyear2]

Tough to lose games when you are churning out hundreds and double hundreds for fun. But how did you know that Bradman was one of the finest tactical brains?

This has never been fully fleshed out tbh.

 

[sayon basak]

Ambrose has basically sealed his position, Steyn vs Barnes will go right down to the wire

Hopefully some new multis to seal this.

 

[kyear2]

Back to this nonsense glorification.

Heaven forbid we reward winning.

 

[sayon basak]

Heaven forbid we reward winning.

Don't you think that has something to do with the fact that McGrath simply played in a better team?

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Don't you think that has something to do with the fact that McGrath simply played in a better team?

McGrath trained all those players himself and made them who they were. Ponting, Warne, Gilchrist, Waugh would have all been ATVGs or worse if McGrath didn’t exist. (Maybe this is kyears logic)

 

[sayon basak]

McGrath trained all those players himself and made them who they were. Ponting, Warne, Gilchrist, Waugh would have all been ATVGs or worse if McGrath didn’t exist. (Maybe this is kyears logic)

McGrath taught Ponting how to bat?

 

[Randomfan]

Don't you think that has something to do with the fact that McGrath simply played in a better team?

Mcgrath did have an outsized imapact.

During McGrath's career:

When McGrath played - Aus W/L 4.2
When McGrath did not play - Aus W/L 2.2

In same period,

When Warne played - Aus W/L - 3.8
When Warne did not play - Aus W/L 3

 

[kyear2]

much slower, less flashy, less entertaining to watch, wasn't a psycho trying to hurt people or whatever bullshit that passed as macho back in the day.

Taking batsmen, not pundits and journalists.

 

[Johan]

Taking batsmen, not pundits and journalists.

same with them, I would much rather face Hadlee than Lillee.

 

[DrWolverine]

Maybe the point is that Ponting could bat with a lighter mind because he knew even if he failed, he knew McGrath and the bowlers could pull the match back.


And the reverse might also be true since McGrath could bowl without pressure knowing that even if runs were leaked or wickets didn’t come early, Ponting and the rest of the Aussie batsmen would pile up a huge score and team would still go on to win the match.

 

[subshakerz]

Mcgrath did have an outsized imapact.

During McGrath's career:

When McGrath played - Aus W/L 4.2
When McGrath did not play - Aus W/L 2.2

In same period,

When Warne played - Aus W/L - 3.8
When Warne did not paly - Aus W/L 3

Absence of McGrath brought down Aus team by a very large margin.

Pretty sure Imran and Hadlee had more impact on their team fortunes.

Kyear is just giving extra points for being a member of a superior team. Which is odd because McGrath objectively had a much easier job as a bowler compared to almost any ATG pacer in history outside Marshall.

 

[DrWolverine]

Pretty sure Imran and Hadlee had more impact on their team fortunes.

No one had a bigger impact on team than Hadlee


At their peak, WestIndies lost just one test series in 15 years. It was to NewZealand and Richard Hadlee played an important part.

Richard Hadlee took 3-58, 4-75, 5-34, 6-68 and also scored one fifty and a century in that series.



In the last 50 years, NewZealand and Australia have played 13 Test series. The one time they won, it involved Richard Hadlee.

Richard Hadlee in that series :
5-65, 5-65, 6-71, 6-90, 9-52,
111 runs including a fifty.


Before 2024; NewZealand have played 24 Tests in India. They have won just one match. Hadlee took 10 wickets in that match.

 

[Coronis]

This has never been fully fleshed out tbh.

His captaincy often gets glossed over due to the focus on his batting, as one might expect. Its hard to find much of an article mentioning too much about his captaincy, let alone one focusing on it. Perhaps @peterhrt would know more.

From everything I recall, he was very technically astute as a captain. His selection policy, as we know with Ward in 36/37, and selection of only 3 bowlers in the famous 1938 Oval test left a fair bit to be desired however. Of course we know he was a very determined captain, needing victory just as much as he needed runs as a batsman. Off the field, whilst he no doubt had the respect of the other players, you’d never call any of them mates really.

 

[kyear2]

Pretty sure Imran and Hadlee had more impact on their team fortunes.

Kyear is just giving extra points for being a member of a superior team. Which is odd because McGrath objectively had a much easier job as a bowler compared to almost any ATG pacer in history outside Marshall.

I gave you the list you requested with regards to McGrath.

But you focus on the line you can attack.

Watching Bumrah has clearly illustrated the benefits and downsides of being in such an attack.

It's not quite the negative it's made out to be.

Also, being the best bowler in an attack means you make life easier for the rest, not the other way round.

 

[subshakerz]

I gave you the list you requested with regards to McGrath.

But you focus on the line you can attack.

Watching Bumrah has clearly illustrated the benefits and downsides of being in such an attack.

It's not quite the negative it's made out to be.

Also, being the best bowler in an attack means you make life easier for the rest, not the other way round.

You can't mention a list you posted after I had already replied to you on this point.

If winning impact is your criteria, it makes no sense to give the preference to McGrath.

You just want to support strong teams because they look shinier.

 

[kyear2]

You can't mention a list you posted after I had already replied to you on this point.

If winning impact is your criteria, it makes no sense to give the preference to McGrath.

You just want to support strong teams because they look shinier.

No. Because winning is the goal of the entire exercise.

There's a reason Brady is the GOAT and not Marino.

Kareem and not Wilt, or Jordan and not Lebron, Duncan and not Malone.

 

[Randomfan]

Pretty sure Imran and Hadlee had more impact on their team fortunes.

Kyear is just giving extra points for being a member of a superior team. Which is odd because McGrath objectively had a much easier job as a bowler compared to almost any ATG pacer in history outside Marshall.

I just pulled results for only IK. I did not bother to look for Hadlee.

During IK's career,

Pakistan W/L when IK did not play - 1.2
Pakistan W/L when IK did play - 1.5


It seems, IK did not have more impact on their team's fortune than McGrath.

There is some noise in this data because IK career was long one, but there is very little evidence to suggest that IK had more impact on his team's fotune compared to McGrath. McGrath elevated W/L to above 4. Yes, team was doing it near 2 without him but doubling from such a hgh level shows an outsized impact.

Team relying on one player can be different than player having outsized impact in winning games. I do agree that if you are playing with great team then similar effrots will result in wins vs loss/draws. For example, Last 2 5-fers of Bumrah would have came in wins if he was playing with a better team. Both tests were lost due to batting collapsing. So it can get hard to compare.

It can be hard to compare this aspect. It's much easier to compare individual output without tieing it with team result.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

No. Because winning is the goal of the entire exercise.

There's a reason Brady is the GOAT and not Marino.

Kareem and not Wilt, or Jordan and not Lebron, Duncan and not Malone.

So Ponting > Lara?