4 & 5

[Burgey]

Oh look, the thousand day clock has wound up for another go.

 

[sunilz]

All of Dravid, Tendulkar, Graeme Smith, Kallis would have been averaging 60 at their peak if their home pitch was as life less as Australian.

Even Road Indian pitches become very difficult bat on Day 4 & 5. And SA pitches in general are bowling friendly

 

[TheJediBrah]

So , you are comparing Smith to Kohli and Williamson . I doubt anyone rates them as top 15 Test batsman ever let alone no.2

Your leaps of logic continuously baffle me. I don't even have the will to try and explain why that has nothing to do with it

 

[Burgey]

The only thing with less life than these pitches is sunilz's sense of logic. Dead cat bounce.

 

[stephen]

All of Dravid, Tendulkar, Graeme Smith, Kallis would have been averaging 60 at their peak if their home pitch was as life less as Australian.

Even Road Indian pitches become very difficult bat on Day 4 & 5. And SA pitches in general are bowling friendly

Kallis probably closest but Dravid and Tendulkar played huge chunks of their career in conditions where more batsmen averaged >50 than at any other time in history before or since. Smith was never that good. Unless you think he was in the top 4 openers ever.

Yes, Australia has had docile pitches in the past 21 years, but Australia's docile pitches are not the reason Smith hit over 700 runs in his last overseas series in generally favourable conditions for bowling.

 

[ma1978]

Three batsman averaged over 50 in the 1990s (four if you include Gooch). Tendulkar’s lead over Waugh and Lara in that period was not dissimilar to Smith over Kohli and Williamson.

No one is saying he is not the best of a generation (and by a margin). I struggle to see how at this stage he is rated higher than Ponting or Waugh, let alone Tendulkar or Lara. Tendulkar averaged nearly 60 over a 150 test period. Ponting had a peak as good or better than Smith and a very long period of value. Let Smith play another 60 tests and then we talk about being a number 2.

 

[Bolo.]

What other Australian players did or any one else is irrelevant. You're drawing erroneous conclusions from irrelevant data. If you really want to push it, all Smith's average in Australia tells me (as someone that has watched nearly every innings live) is that he does what is needed without bullying and capitalising when it's not necessary. This has been one of the hallmarks of his career, he's the opposite of a downhill skiier, throws his wicket away toward the end of an innings or nearing a declaration without a care. Comes in at 2-10 in the 2019 Ashes every innings and averages 100. Then the next summer on home roads against NZ and Pak comes in at 2-300 and averages 40. If he was more like Warner and bullied weak teams on flat tracks then who knows maybe he'd average way more at home. That's why his average in Australia isn't as much higher than his overseas average as you would think.

When everyone fits a pattern, the pattern starts to become relevant. I think we can accept that an Aus bat from the the 1800s is less likely to average 50 than a modern one.

On pure (basic) numbers, Warner is clearly better than Smith at home. Opening plus greater longevity. Nobody would actually hold this to be true for reasons like you are suggesting, but the fact that a bat of Warners quality can average 63 at home, especially as an opener is ridiculously clear evidence of home advantage.

 

[Raz0r6ack]

His away average (57, not 60) is outstanding even by ATG standards. But this doesn't change the fact that his record is boosted by averaging 68 on easy home pitches.

See ABDV, who averaged nearly the same away and was light years ahead of Smith in matches they played together, but doesn't enter top tier conversations on account of not scoring heavily enough on tough home pitches.

Smith averages ~68 batting at 3 and 4.

Outside of Australia Smith averages 67 batting at 3 and 4.

De Villiers batted down the order and scored all of his runs at 5 and 6.

 

[TheJediBrah]

When everyone fits a pattern, the pattern starts to become relevant. I think we can accept that an Aus bat from the the 1800s is less likely to average 50 than a modern one.

On pure (basic) numbers, Warner is clearly better than Smith at home. Opening plus greater longevity. Nobody would actually hold this to be true for reasons like you are suggesting, but the fact that a bat of Warners quality can average 63 at home, especially as an opener is ridiculously clear evidence of home advantage.

We're getting into circular reasoning here. No one's saying that Aus home pitches haven't been flat. But the suggestion that Smith owes any of success to that is inaccurate.

If you want to keep talking about how flat Aus pitches have been for the last 10 years (and as a result how good Pat Cummins must be) I'm more than happy to do it but it's not that relevant in this scenario. It would be like saying Steyn isn't that good because SA is good for bowling and Philander can average 19 at home.

 

[Burgey]

On pure (basic) numbers, Warner is clearly better than Smith at home. Opening plus greater longevity. Nobody would actually hold this to be true for reasons like you are suggesting, but the fact that a bat of Warners quality can average 63 at home, especially as an opener is ridiculously clear evidence of home advantage.

Well no, it's manifestly clear evidence that he has a disproportionate advantage in home conditions. The fact Warner averages 63 at home doesn't prove those conditions are easy for everyone. If they were then you would expect him to have had a settled opening partner since Chris Rogers retired. His game is just crazily suited to home conditions, because he picks up length quickly and hits through the first line.

There's nothing really wrong with suggesting batting is easier in Australia than it is in, say, England. But using one guy's set of numbers to do so ain't it. It's the equivalent of taking Sehwag's home record and saying therefore India is an easy place to bat.

 

[Bolo.]

All of Dravid, Tendulkar, Graeme Smith, Kallis would have been averaging 60 at their peak if their home pitch was as life less as Australian.

Even Road Indian pitches become very difficult bat on Day 4 & 5. And SA pitches in general are bowling friendly

Other than G Smith (an opening bat), they all were averaging 60ish for lengths of time that far exceeded S Smiths playing career. IIRC, Kallis did S Smiths average for 13ish years, while bowling. His average suffered cos he started as a very mediocre teenager, and was persisted with on potential, unlike Smith who got dropped.

Not arguing Kallis is better than Smith for the record. Peak smith is better than peak kallis (not just the 4 year thing i referenced earlier). But we basically have only seen peakish smith. The comparison isnt particularly valid.

 

[Daemon]

I don’t think people are disagreeing with each other here on anything other than how important longevity is.

Well except Sunilz, not sure wtf he’s saying.

 

[Bolo.]

Well no, it's manifestly clear evidence that he has a disproportionate advantage in home conditions. The fact Warner averages 63 at home doesn't prove those conditions are easy for everyone. If they were then you would expect him to have had a settled opening partner since Chris Rogers retired. His game is just crazily suited to home conditions, because he picks up length quickly and hits through the first line.

There's nothing really wrong with suggesting batting is easier in Australia than it is in, say, England. But using one guy's set of numbers to do so ain't it. It's the equivalent of taking Sehwag's home record and saying therefore India is an easy place to bat.

Look at every Aus bat who has averaged close to 50 from the last couple of decades. They tend to average something like 50% more at home than away. And the trend is widening. Warner (Smiths contemporary) is just at the extreme end of this trend.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Look at every Aus bat who has averaged close to 50 from the last couple of decades. They tend to average something like 50% more at home than away. And the trend is widening. Warner (Smiths contemporary) is just at the extreme end of this trend.

Ok but again this is a completely different topic of discussion

 

[sunilz]

If Ashwin had averaged 28 overseas instead of 31, then his bowling average would be around 22 . Would Ashwin be then regarded as better spinner than Warne ?

 

[Bolo.]

Ok but again this is a completely different topic of discussion

You believe this to be a completely different topic to the "relative ease of Aussie pitches" that I joined this conversation at?

 

[Burgey]

Look at every Aus bat who has averaged close to 50 from the last couple of decades. They tend to average something like 50% more at home than away. And the trend is widening. Warner (Smiths contemporary) is just at the extreme end of this trend.

Yeah but averaging more at home than away is a trend across virtually all countries, isn't it? I don't know that this trend is widening in Australia atm, especially given there are so few blokes here averaging around the 50 mark these days.

Isn't the best measure of these stats the simplest - a comparison of averages per dismissal of top six/ seven batsmen across different countries? It's not something I've given an awful lot of thought to, but I'd have thought that was probably the best way to compare. It wouldn't surprise me if the average/ wicket was highest here in that sort of comparison anyway.

 

[trundler]

Kallis and Tendulkar minnow bashed way more tbf

 

[sunilz]

Kallis and Tendulkar minnow bashed way more tbf

Batting against English pace attack on Aussie roads is also minnow bashing.
English pace attack is completely unsuited to Australian conditions.

 

[TheJediBrah]

You believe this to be a completely different topic to the "relative ease of Aussie pitches" that I joined this conversation at?

Yes, because we're talking specifically about Steve Smith here. I'll say it again:

If you want to keep talking about how flat Aus pitches have been for the last 10 years I'm more than happy to do it but it's not that relevant in this scenario