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2nd Test at the MCG, Melbourne, 26 Dec - 30 Dec 2020

Senile Sentry

International Debutant
He's got a touch of the young Steve Smiths about him in that one is back of a length on off he tends to stay leg side of it instinctively and then look to punch it through the off side, which could be a problem on the bouncier tracks in Tests. He deals with the shorter ones on his body fine so I don't think it's a general problem with pace and bounce, but it's definitely something he should work on IMO.

I really rate the guy though. I was more impressed with him than Shaw in the U19 WC they played in and kind of surprised others felt differently at the time so I'm stoked to see him doing well.
He looks prone to movement than boune given his reliance on horizontal strokes.

But also has scored a lot of runs in NZ playing for A team including a sterling double hundred, so may be he has the game to adjust as well.

Too early to call. Bullish on him doing a Smith in the long run without the eyesore.
 

cnerd123

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that’s not the question. All of that is irrelevant. They’re big boys. They can deal. The question is which approach will result in higher batting totals for India. If that’s Rohit opening, that’s fine. If that’s rohit opening in India and batting at 11 overseas, that’s fine too. Surely the only consideration from team management should be which batting lineup will produce the maximum runs.
I get your thinking. I used to think the same way. But players only get better at Test cricket by playing Test cricket, and whether you like it or not, every team we select has to have one eye on the future. We're never going to find anyone better than Rohit Sharma if we keep picking Rohit Sharma.

Lokesh, Vihari and Agarwal will all gain a lot by playing. What they will gain outweighs what negligble advantage, if any, Rohit can give us immediately in the short term.

And I don't think Rohit can give us any advantage. Look at Agarwal for example. Agarwal did almost as well as Rohit did in that home series vs SA as opener, and outperformed Rohit in the IPL. Look how he's performing here. Do we genuinely think Rohit would go any better as an opener? Do you think his technical flaws won't be found out?

He is not a better selection as a middle order player either. Vihari offers important bowling coverage and Lokesh offers keeping coverage. They both have been in Australia longer, have played more cricket recently, and are good fielders. Rohit is straight out of an injury and quarantine.

But mainly I think being overly pragmatic about short-term results at a '**** everything else' attitude is usually the wrong way to go about things. It's how strong teams collapse. They don't try to develop the next generation enough, and suddenly when one gen of players all retires they go into a rebuilding mode and suck at International level for many years. We have a team that has just beaten Australia in Australia. This combination worked. For whatever reason. Why break the harmony unless necessary?
 

Shri

Mr. Glass
And I don't think Rohit can give us any advantage. Look at Agarwal for example. Agarwal did almost as well as Rohit did in that home series vs SA as opener, and outperformed Rohit in the IPL. Look how he's performing here. Do we genuinely think Rohit would go any better as an opener? Do you think his technical flaws won't be found out?
Dude he has always had time to play pace bowling and has great balance. Mayank's getting beaten for pace if it swings back in at pace and can't get his bat down to block or play shots soon enough, in addition to nicking off when he doesn't get bowled.

Sharma is in his prime as a batsman and we have got a year or two at best before he declines. Might as well use his experience and form until then.
 

OverratedSanity

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I would wholehearedly agree with *****'s pov here if it was a series in the subcontinent where we'd probably be cruising to a series win. Cant be too rigid about positions like that just because the shuffling of the order around Rohit annoys you (it annoys me too believe me).
 

cnerd123

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Dude he has always had time to play pace bowling and has great balance. Mayank's getting beaten for pace if it swings back in at pace and can't get his bat down to block or play shots soon enough, in addition to nicking off when he doesn't get bowled.

Sharma is in his prime as a batsman and we have got a year or two at best before he declines. Might as well use his experience and form until then.
Yea I think lack of recent game time and form negates all that tbh. If Rohit could play some warmup games and score some runs, then yea sure I agree with you. But he'll literally be coming out of quarantine onto the field. I don't think he'll perform right away.

Maybe if we give him the 3rd Test to find his feet, he'd do decently in the 4th? I could see that argument for selecting him. But I also feel we owe it to Agarwal to give him an opportunity to turn his form around. He's the incumbent and did well in his most recent games. He deserves a bit of rope to find his way back. And if he does, then it is huge for him and for the team moving ahead. If he does not, then we could probably still win the series, and he will learn from the experience. If Rohit plays the next 2 tests and fails, we gain nothing.
 

harsh.ag

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Indian cricket fans are such sensitive little flowers

Gill is 21 ffs and will obviously have technical flaws

Good news is that he’s a lot younger than Burns, Harris & Head whom are baaaad
Everyone already admitted that he has problems. If the criticism is just that he's going to knick off when the ball moves, that's literally true for all batters except for the "elite" ones. Lame. Make better points and be okay with replies.
 

Shri

Mr. Glass
dude he had a pint with border this week and he agrees with social that Indian cricket fans are such sensitive little flowers

if border says it it must be true
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Yeah there not unusual I suppose but wondered if there was a formal role for him
No, they are never formally on the committee but they are "consulted". It has always been this way from the time I started following Indian cricket but I think the big weightage given to the captain's voice is a thing only since Ganguly took over as captain. He was single handedly instrumental in getting Harbhajan selected in the 2001 series, for instance.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
That over rate fine is silly but mainly because the system itself is so silly. You bowl a side out and you dont get penalized but you bowl same number of overs in the same time but opposition is only 8 down, you are fined. So stupid.
 

cnerd123

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That over rate fine is silly but mainly because the system itself is so silly. You bowl a side out and you dont get penalized but you bowl same number of overs in the same time but opposition is only 8 down, you are fined. So stupid.
I think it's different rules for ODIs and Tests. They do a session by session average or something like that.

I for one am looking forward to when the WTC Final is drawn and the result determined based on over rates.
yesssss
 

stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Didn't stop the batsmen from making merry against Pak, SL and NZ however. Come on mate, a nets rule however ******** it might be suddenly cannot make elite batsmen forget their craft.

Not can playing t20s as well (after making truckloads in ODIs).

India have got very good plans and executed even better against most of them. Simple as.
No there's definitely a direction going on from the coaching staff. Look at the way that Starc batted today. That was so antithetical to the way he normally bats that it's clear grinding it out is now the goal. Langer has the batters so scared to make a mistake that they're forgetting how to construct an innings. At least that's how it appears. The batsmen are burning all of their concentration on survival that they're focussing none of it on scoring.

Problem is that grinding it out isn't working because they're letting the bowlers settle into their rhythm. They're playing subcontinental attritional cricket without realising it. There needs to be a focus on turning over the strike and turning some good balls into ones and punishing the bad balls. The bad balls aren't going to come if the batsmen never make any attempt to make something happen.

Now I'm not talking about walking down the pitch and smacking bowlers over their heads ala Matthew Hayden. I'm talking about figuring a way to safely put the ball into the gap for the occasional single. Like what the Indian batters did on day 2.

India debuted a fast bowler and are playing against finger spinners on the MCG. For how well Siraj bowled (and he did bowl well), there's no way that the glory days side would allow a newbie dictate terms like that. They'd pounce on anything and everything and hit him off his lines and lengths.

There's that story floating around of how Hayden said to Langer in one of his earlier tests that if this was the shield he'd just walk down the pitch and smack the bowler over their heads, based on the lengths they were bowling. Langer said "do it" and that was when Hayden the aggressive test opener was born. Where's the "do it" Langer now? He's focussed so much on arresting the collapses that he's forgotten to give batsmen the freedom to play their own games.

And full credit to him, he has managed to arrest the collapses. Now instead of happening in 30 balls, they happen in 150 balls. They're still collapses, they're just not as dramatic. 3-38 (14.3 overs), 7-71 (58 overs) were the two collapses in the first innings and 6-99 (47.4 overs) and 4-44 (21 overs) were the two collapses in the second innings. They're still collapses, they're still unacceptable, but now they're drawn out over two thirds of a day of cricket instead of one and a half hours.

That first innings 7-71 over 58 overs is excruciating. Not even 1.5 runs per over which means that despite batting nearly 60 overs, the last seven wickets didn't mean much. Similarly the 6-99 (47.4 overs) was half a day of cricket for the loss of over half the team and for so few runs that one Indian batsman's innings made up for it.

It has to stop. The batsmen are batting scared and there needs to be some serious soul searching before the next test. Warner is not magically going to fix all of the problems (though it will help) and Burns and Smith being out of form isn't the cause of all the problems. Even with Smith and Burns not scoring anything, Wade, Labuschagne, Head and Green are batting for long periods without really punishing the bowlers for it. We know that Wade, Head and Green are in sublime first class form and Labuschagne is a class batsman, but they get into the middle and are throwing their wickets away after grinding out a score over 100+ balls that most batsmen would consider a "start". It's not good enough.
 

stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
To just go back to my point.

There were 22 innings in this test by Australians. In only 8 of those innings did the batsmen strike at a rate greater than or equal to 40. Three of those were numbers 9-11 in the first innings. In fact there were only 4 innings from top 7 batsmen that went at a rate equal to or exceeding 40.

Australia batted 175 overs in the test. But they batted so slowly that they made a grand total of 395 runs. If they had have batted even slightly faster - at say an average strike rate of 50 for the same time, they would have put up an extra 130 runs, which would have made the match completely different.
 

cnerd123

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It's a combination of lackluster Aussie batting gameplans and quality Indian bowling.

India's batting has struggled with scoring too, but they've perhaps had a bit more luck go their way (outside of 36 a/o). Several batters have put their hands up to play some good knocks at decent pace batting around Che and Vihari.

Maybe Aus needs to identify who the grinders are and who the shotmakers are. Atm it seems like the lineup is relying on Smith and Labu continuing to score millions of runs freakishly, allowing the rest to bat freely without pressure. Now that those two aren't scoring, the lack of a gameplan from the rest is exposed.
 

OverratedSanity

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To just go back to my point.

There were 22 innings in this test by Australians. In only 8 of those innings did the batsmen strike at a rate greater than or equal to 40. Three of those were numbers 9-11 in the first innings. In fact there were only 4 innings from top 7 batsmen that went at a rate equal to or exceeding 40.

Australia batted 175 overs in the test. But they batted so slowly that they made a grand total of 395 runs. If they had have batted even slightly faster - at say an average strike rate of 50 for the same time, they would have put up an extra 130 runs, which would have made the match completely different.
Maybe they lasted 176 overs because they batted slowly
 

stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
It's a combination of lackluster Aussie batting gameplans and quality Indian bowling.

India's batting has struggled with scoring too, but they've perhaps had a bit more luck go their way (outside of 36 a/o). Several batters have put their hands up to play some good knocks at decent pace batting around Che and Vihari.

Maybe Aus needs to identify who the grinders are and who the shotmakers are. Atm it seems like the lineup is relying on Smith and Labu continuing to score millions of runs freakishly, allowing the rest to bat freely without pressure. Now that those two aren't scoring, the lack of a gameplan from the rest is exposed.
You're probably not too far off the mark there. The failings of two years ago have been written off by everyone as "oh we will simply suck without Warner and Smith so nothing to worry about". The public comments were always "we're without our two best players" which was nonsense since Cummins was still in the team.

The problem is that Langer is a meddler in all the wrong ways. He won't correct Head's or Burns' techniques but he tells them to "grind it out". He meddles with their preparation but doesn't fix the glaring faults in their techniques. He abdicates his responsibility to work at turning these guys into world class batters and pins his hopes on his magical "just tough it out" strategy to work.

The only batsman who I think has been refreshing to watch these two tests has been Wade. And I think it's because he's been given a guarantee that he won't get dropped because even if he fails as opener he will definitely be given a spot back in the middle order because "he made the sacrifice to open, which is hard". He's been our most consistent batsman other than perhaps Labuschagne and with a bit more application could have gone on to bigger scores.

Head has always had technical weaknesses that have been obvious, but coming in behind Smith for so long down the order he's managed to relatively consistently get handy 30s and 40s to keep his average high enough to keep his spot. He needs to go and work on his footwork.

Burns is out of form and will make way for Warner next test, but I think he really should not have put away his pull shot. Even if he was getting out playing it, it's worth so much of his run making capability that he needed to keep playing it. He should have corrected his straight bat shots by now as well.

Smith being out of form doesn't help things, but a batting lineup shouldn't be scoring 450+ scores only when a single batsman is in form. Smith needs to start playing with a bit more freedom. Told that he needs to play his shots early on, even if he gets a couple more low scores doing so. It's IMO the only way to get him back into form. He's batting extremely timidly, not like the best test batsman in the world.

Green is still quite inexperienced and is worth persisting with. It would have been better to introduce him in a Sri Lanka series or something but cest le vie. His upside should keep him in the side for now. He just needs to put away the pull shot for a while. His straight bat technique is easily good enough to give him enough run scoring capability.
 

stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Maybe they lasted 176 overs because they batted slowly
But I'm not talking about taking huge risks, I'm talking about finding an extra single each over. Jadeja and Ashwin were allowed to bowl far too many maidens despite the pitch not turning (particularly in the second innings).
 

OverratedSanity

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But I'm not talking about taking huge risks, I'm talking about finding an extra single each over. Jadeja and Ashwin were allowed to bowl far too many maidens despite the pitch not turning (particularly in the second innings).
Maybe this is the exact line of thinking that leads to pushing forward on your defensive prods looking for singles and ending up playing away from your body and edging to slip like Head has.

This **** isn't as simple as you're making out. Warner returning will absolutely be a huge help however.
 

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