No hopers who made it

[thierry henry]

With Oram, I also think people got really sour on him when his batting fell off a cliff in the last few years of his career (white ball only). I'm not sure why that happened, but I think especially with all of his injuries and retirement from test cricket, there was an expectation his bowling might take a bat seat. Instead, for a few years he carried on as a near tailender who still justified his spot as a bowler. I think people just never really took his bowling seriously enough in white ball stuff because he wasn't up to the mark in tests.

 

[Bahnz]

I had beef with CDG long before I had beef with "sloggers" generally. The problem with CDG was simply that he was being touted for higher honours but his domestic numbers were crap. However, the issue was mostly that he was seen as a white ball specialist but iirc his domestic red ball numbers were decent but domestic white ball numbers were crap?

I can't be bothered looking up his domestic white ball numbers, but his domestic red ball figures in the 4 seasons running up to his test debut were very smart: 1493 runs at 40 and 56 wickets at 24.

 

[Kippax]

Oh it was McMillan on Radio Sport who was stoking some of the niggly lower socio resentment for Oram. I see. A kind of 'Comms vs. Neesham' early prototype.

https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/oram-hits-back-at-mcmillan-criticism-382563

17-Dec-2008

McMillan had suggested that Oram had been "wrapped in cotton wool" by both the previous and current coaching regimes. "You've always got sore calfs, hammys [hamstrings] but you just get on and do it," McMillan told Radio Sport. "Unfortunately with Jake's [Oram's] track record, he has missed some games that maybe he could have got through."

Oram, who has now sat out five consecutive Tests through injury, having last played in the first Test against Bangladesh in Chittagong, said he did not expect to hear such comments from a former team-mate.

"I understand people who have never bowled a ball in anger in their lives having a bit of a go at me for potentially being on the soft side, but it's disappointing to come from an ex-teammate," he said. "He knows the rigours and the stresses of international cricket and it's a bit rich saying if it's 50-50, I don't play."

 

[Flem274*]

CdG was one of our best natural and orthodox batting talents, he was just very, very, very thick when it came to knowing when not to go aerial.

He also didn't understand leg spin.

Not a no hoper because he was always going to be in the team if he discovered batting with half a brain.

Likewise Henry was just another high 130s outswing bowler who wasn't quite good enough for test cricket until he improved enough for everything to click (similar to the Woakes situation). He doesn't belong in the thread unless we list the other 329 FC bowlers in his exact position prior to getting good.

Richardson and Watling are good calls. Mainly Rigor.

 

[wellAlbidarned]

Henry benefited huuuugely from the kookaburra seam buff

 

[Shady Slim]

Devon Conway? His stocks are down atm, but 10 international hundreds and counting from a bloke who at 25/26 couldn't get a game in Div 2 SA FC cricket is pretty good. Daryl Mitchell also a good shout.

every kiwi who has played cricket since 2000 probably has at one point or another in their international career been described as "plucky"

 

[SteveNZ]

With Oram, I also think people got really sour on him when his batting fell off a cliff in the last few years of his career (white ball only). I'm not sure why that happened, but I think especially with all of his injuries and retirement from test cricket, there was an expectation his bowling might take a bat seat. Instead, for a few years he carried on as a near tailender who still justified his spot as a bowler. I think people just never really took his bowling seriously enough in white ball stuff because he wasn't up to the mark in tests.

The general word around Oram at the back-end of his career is that he was home sick and would rather have been home patting his dog (quote from a national selector around that time). That would speak to what Kippax posted above about McMillan's comments.

Which is why it surprises me that he's a coach now, who travels the world and the country.

 

[SteveNZ]

CdG was one of our best natural and orthodox batting talents, he was just very, very, very thick when it came to knowing when not to go aerial.

He also didn't understand leg spin.

Not a no hoper because he was always going to be in the team if he discovered batting with half a brain.

Likewise Henry was just another high 130s outswing bowler who wasn't quite good enough for test cricket until he improved enough for everything to click (similar to the Woakes situation). He doesn't belong in the thread unless we list the other 329 FC bowlers in his exact position prior to getting good.

Richardson and Watling are good calls. Mainly Rigor.

All fair comments on CdG. He's a pretty simple fella. But I think his simple nature is what allowed him to play international cricket, along obviously with his talents. See ball, hit ball. He absolutely smoked Bond over EPOO's main stand early on - a lesser mortal wouldn't have dared. He just had this incredibly developed eye for the ball. Does in golf too, and he's exactly the same as a golfer as he is a cricketer - hits it miles, does some of the most braindead stuff you'd ever see.

What is underappreciated about CdG is that his technique is one of the best we've seen in this country for a long time. He was rock solid on both feet, OK he had a leg-spinner issue but he could flat out play.

I don't agree on Henry, however. He was good enough for Test cricket well before he proved it, but didn't get enough access to the new ball to show it. And had a bit of a lousy attitude, didn't help. If he'd tried to become a first change bowler, I think he could have managed it but certainly not as effective and it may have made him a different bowler, and not developed into what he is now.

 

[thierry henry]

The general word around Oram at the back-end of his career is that he was home sick and would rather have been home patting his dog (quote from a national selector around that time).

I mean…yeah this is exactly the sort of yarn that Oram-haters used to run even though the numbers said he was fine.

My Senior B side would say I don’t want to be there (I don’t ) irrespective of my performance too.

 

[SteveNZ]

I mean…yeah this is exactly the sort of yarn that Oram-haters used to run even though the numbers said he was fine.

My Senior B side would say I don’t want to be there (I don’t ) irrespective of my performance too.

Yeah but I mean in terms of why he missed so many games, prompting McMillan to speak as he did. I wasn't an Oram hater, good bloke.

Your Senior B side say you're their version of Mark Veumeulen. Good player, asshole, could burn the clubhouse down on the wrong day

 

[TheJediBrah]

I see we've reached the inevitable point in every cricket chat thread where the Kiwis have taken over

 

[wellAlbidarned]

I see we've reached the inevitable point in every cricket chat thread where the Kiwis have taken over

It's a thread about no-hopers, we're like pigs in the mud

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Re Oram and seen as being soft he once said he'd cut off a finger to play in the 2007 World Cup. If only he'd done it eh?? Would be properly respected.

He fell away for a few years, but really stepped up for a pretty mediocre side in the 2011 - joined in with Taylor in the smashing of Pakistan then motm in the qf vs SA.

 

[TheJediBrah]

It's a thread about no-hopers, we're like pigs in the mud

Wait until someone makes a thread about "plucky underdogs who punched above their weight"

 

[Smudge]

Yeah I'll allow Collingwood and Mitchell too.

Cool, cheers for that, sole arbiter Trundler.

 

[SteveNZ]

I see we've reached the inevitable point in every cricket chat thread where the Kiwis have taken over

We're well placed to post in a thread about no hopers. When there's one open entitled 'players who their country thought would be world beaters because they dominate a domestic T20 league that actually is a fairly woeful standard' then Australian posters will be welcomed with open arms.

 

[straw man]

I see we've reached the inevitable point in every cricket chat thread where the Kiwis have taken over

That's right. Rule 1 of cricket web.

 

[straw man]

With Oram, I also think people got really sour on him when his batting fell off a cliff in the last few years of his career (white ball only). I'm not sure why that happened, but I think especially with all of his injuries and retirement from test cricket, there was an expectation his bowling might take a bat seat. Instead, for a few years he carried on as a near tailender who still justified his spot as a bowler. I think people just never really took his bowling seriously enough in white ball stuff because he wasn't up to the mark in tests.

It was this for me - his batting started brilliantly, that test hundred at 6 against Australia earned a lot of fans. But then he was exposed against the short ball in test cricket, and then his batting fell off a cliff in all formats. However the selectors took a loong time to accept this, and so he was a walking wicket too high in the order for a long while. This leads to annoyance in the style of 'why are we still selecting Henry Nicholls/ Tim Southee???' on CW. IIRC Oram did end up playing a few JAM white-ball series at the tail end of his career, batting down at a more late-career-appropriate position of 8, though ultimately his bowling wasn't quite good enough to command a place as a specialist bowler.

And yes there was also the transition from 'I'd cut my broken finger right off rather than miss the World Cup' to 'eh I'd rather stay home'.

Overall though, I thought he had a reasonably good NZ career.

 

[straw man]

Weirdly the name that pops into my head for this thread, for a certain definition of 'made it', is Johnson Charles.

10+ years ago when he first played for WI in one of the World Cups, there was comment after comment about how much of a hackfraud he looked, how much he didn't look like a real batter, how often he mistimed the ball.... all true. And nothing's really changed since then, in 'research' for this post I watched a recent CPL innings of his on youtube and he cloth-ed all but two of his big shots, all heaves to cow corner. But at the same time, it's 2025, he's 36 years old, has played for over 20 teams in the last 10-12 years on the T20 circuit and has surely made a good living playing cricket, despite never cracking the big time. So, the joke is on us? He made it, imo.

 

[Coronis]

We're well placed to post in a thread about no hopers. When there's one open entitled 'players who their country thought would be world beaters because they dominate a domestic T20 league that actually is a fairly woeful standard' then Australian posters will be welcomed with open arms.

I thought that was India