TheJediBrah
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two ATVGs
-
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No hopers who made it
- Thread starter Bahnz
- Start date
shortpitched713
Cricketer Of The Year
The batting and bowling versions of one another.
/trolling
/trolling
TheJediBrah
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Anderson has more Ashes runs than Tendulkar
thierry henry
International Coach
I thought Conway was a gun Div 2 player who had done poorly in Div 1?
But yeah - good shout anyway. Perception vs reality on Wagner/Conway is interesting. Both came to NZ from a similar cricketing background (highly rated youngsters struggling to crack Div 1 FC cricket) but Wagner was still at the promising youngster stage while Conway was getting towards journeyman status.
Wagner is now seen as a heroic underdog whereas Conway is starting to earn a reputation as a classy batsman who underperforms - the reality is that Wagner was the more highly touted of the 2 when he came to NZ while Conway's FC dominance was more of a surprise.
wellAlbidarned
International Coach
Colin De Grandhomme
Perception prior to his debut was that he was at best an alright T20 slogger. Turned into arguably our best seam allrounder since Cairns.
Perception prior to his debut was that he was at best an alright T20 slogger. Turned into arguably our best seam allrounder since Cairns.
Coronis
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
You guys have had other seam allrounders since Cairns?
Athlai
Not Terrible
Oram
_Ed_
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And (briefly) Corey Anderson. Franklin kinda could have been.
wellAlbidarned
International Coach
and jimmeh
CDG and Oram are almost inseperable on numbers at face value. Haven't dug in properly but Oram batted up the order more, scored at a conventional rate, made more 100s, but was pretty useless outside a big purple patch. CDG batted almost entirely at 7 and was remarkably reliable for someone whose primary role was to give it a whack.
thierry henry
International Coach
My intuitive response to your CDG post was to ponder how Oram seems to have become underrated. I know a number of people who really loathe him for some reason.
thierry henry
International Coach
My theories on why people have beef with Oram
- They wanted him to be a big-hitting batting all-rounder in white ball cricket and he confounded expectations by being a very handy bowling all-rounder
- They wanted him to be a genuine all-rounder in tests to replace Cairns, but he was always likely to be more of a batter who could bowl
- He was injured quite a lot and then retired prematurely from tests
The premature retirement from tests pissed me off too tbh but it doesn't change the reality that the brief test career he had was decent, and it hardly hurts him in a comparison with CDG whose whole career was 5 years (and there's a good argument he was one of those lucky guys who got to play his whole test career in what turned out to be his prime)
- They wanted him to be a big-hitting batting all-rounder in white ball cricket and he confounded expectations by being a very handy bowling all-rounder
- They wanted him to be a genuine all-rounder in tests to replace Cairns, but he was always likely to be more of a batter who could bowl
- He was injured quite a lot and then retired prematurely from tests
The premature retirement from tests pissed me off too tbh but it doesn't change the reality that the brief test career he had was decent, and it hardly hurts him in a comparison with CDG whose whole career was 5 years (and there's a good argument he was one of those lucky guys who got to play his whole test career in what turned out to be his prime)
wellAlbidarned
International Coach
Yeah I definitely rate Oram. His overseas batting also holds up well - CDG was a massive home track hero.
Kippax
Cricketer Of The Year
Oram was never much of a people's choice winner, that's true. Always regarded as soft and an overly serious big dork by the Muzza from Hunterville types. Oram not being raised a city slicker himself, he seemed to really take that to heart.
Even his name was perfect to represent NZ cricket's transition from like a biblical Esau culture to a Jacob culture. From very loose and populist to very tight and analytical nerds.
Even his name was perfect to represent NZ cricket's transition from like a biblical Esau culture to a Jacob culture. From very loose and populist to very tight and analytical nerds.
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Bahnz
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Not sure I'd entirely back CDG for this discussion - mainly because CDG came into test cricket and just immediately looked at home. It was a huge shock to everyone because we all thought he was a poor man's Grant Elliot, but I think a lot of that was based on outdated attitudes to the standards of NZ domestic cricket in the mid-2010's, and the kind of player CDG was - rather than anything to do with his actual ability.
Oram suffered in the public's estimation more because of what he wasn't (i.e. Chris Cairns) than what he was (i.e. a fine batting all-rounder good for tough runs from number 6 and a couple wickets a game).
Oram suffered in the public's estimation more because of what he wasn't (i.e. Chris Cairns) than what he was (i.e. a fine batting all-rounder good for tough runs from number 6 and a couple wickets a game).
Immenso
International Vice-Captain
I guess it depends on how you define 'hope' or 'no hope'.
I mean, CdG has/had more talent in his little finger than many NZ test cricketers had in their whole bodies.
But, I guess there is also discipline, attitude, intelligence. Not just talent.
NZ selectors (or CdG) found a way for his by far lesser natural skill to get him into the team. And that lesser skill was surprisingly good and it became really very valuable.
I mean, CdG has/had more talent in his little finger than many NZ test cricketers had in their whole bodies.
But, I guess there is also discipline, attitude, intelligence. Not just talent.
NZ selectors (or CdG) found a way for his by far lesser natural skill to get him into the team. And that lesser skill was surprisingly good and it became really very valuable.
thierry henry
International Coach
I had beef with CDG long before I had beef with "sloggers" generally. The problem with CDG was simply that he was being touted for higher honours but his domestic numbers were crap. However, the issue was mostly that he was seen as a white ball specialist but iirc his domestic red ball numbers were decent but domestic white ball numbers were crap?
This may just be a timeline that exists in my head, but I mostly remember being shocked by CDG's initial test selection because I thought he was a dud white ball specialist whose time had passed as he had been usurped by younger all-rounders who, basically, bowled faster (Anderson and Neesham). I'm not sure it was actually a horrible selection based on numbers though? It was more the perception that the selectors had pigeonholed him as not a test player.
This may just be a timeline that exists in my head, but I mostly remember being shocked by CDG's initial test selection because I thought he was a dud white ball specialist whose time had passed as he had been usurped by younger all-rounders who, basically, bowled faster (Anderson and Neesham). I'm not sure it was actually a horrible selection based on numbers though? It was more the perception that the selectors had pigeonholed him as not a test player.