*Official* Road to the 2025-26 Ashes

[Molehill]

Australia is such an outlier in conditions. I'm not sure that they'll pick Dawson because of the multitude of left handers Australia will have. Although I have little doubt he'll show greater discipline in terms of more consistent line and length, you can't help think that they'll still successfully attack him.

But if your spinner is not going to have any match defining impact with the ball (no matter how good they are), may as well pick the one who can bat.

 

[Uppercut]

What did Jack Leach do to piss off the Baz Corporation? Surely he's still the best English spinner by miles and miles and miles.

 

[govinda indian fan]

What did Jack Leach do to piss off the Baz Corporation? Surely he's still the best English spinner by miles and miles and miles.

Baz cares more about style over substance

 

[Chin Music]

What did Jack Leach do to piss off the Baz Corporation? Surely he's still the best English spinner by miles and miles and miles.

Get injured quite a lot. Injured before the Ashes 2023 then got injured early in the tour to India the following year. He bowled well in the first two matches in the Pakistan tour last year but his form fell away quite badly for the last test, suggesting that he has a problem with endurance. I would suggest that he's been unlucky not to play in home conditions this year, but I would have been surprised if he had done that much more in the India series just gone, with so little help for the spinners. He too would be a poor pick for Australia given the lack of revs he puts on the ball.

@Molehill I totally get what you are saying re Dawson, just don't think they are going to pick him.

 

[TheJediBrah]

But if your spinner is not going to have any match defining impact with the ball (no matter how good they are), may as well pick the one who can bat.

Then why even pick a spinner. Let Root do it

 

[OverratedSanity]

i've done a statsguru search of the best tours here by visiting spinners going back a decade and here's what i got - min qualification of five wickets, so not a lot:

1. ravi jadeja in 2020/21 - two matches - 7 wickets at 15.00
2. kuldeep yadav in 2018/19 - one match - 5 wickets at 19.80
3. r ashwin in 2018/19 - one match - 6 wickets at 24.83
4. ravi jadeja in 2018/19 - two matches - 7 wickets at 28.57
5. r ashwin in 2020/21 - three matches - 12 wickets at 28.83
6. joe root in 2021/22 - five matches - 5 wickets at 46.80
7. ravi ashwin in 2014/15 - three matches - 12 wickets at 48.66
8. jack leach in 2021/22 - three matches - 6 wickets at 53.50
9. mark craig in 2015/16 - three matches - 8 wickets at 64.12
10. jomel warrican in 2015/16 - three matches - 5 wickets at 76.00
11. yasir shah in 2016/17 - three matches - 8 wickets at 84.00
12. moeen ali in 2017/18 - five matches 5 wickets at 115.00

meanwhile on the aussie side of the ledger you have

1. steve o'keefe with 7 wickets at 23.71 (played 2)
2. trav head with 7 wickets at 29.28
3. nathan lyon with 213 wickets at 30.80
4. steve smith with 3 wickets at 75

so aside from the indian spin rooms in 2018/19 and 20/21, you haven't had a single overseas spinner average less than 40 and take more than five wickets

Ashwin, Jadeja on both those tours and useful performances Kuldeep, even Sundar in that Brisbane test shows that spin can play a pivotal role for sure. It's just less likely these days because Australia regularly roll out greentops where it makes no sense to not just bowl your battery of seamers non stop. Felt like Lyon was barely even a part of the attack for large parts of the India series.

If England do pick a spinner I think it has to be Leach but they wont do it.

 

[Molehill]

Then why even pick a spinner. Let Root do it

If Stokes is fit, then they've got 4 good seamers, which will be plenty if we get those BGT green tops. Dawson averages 35 with the bat in FC so is of more use than just picking another batsman.

@Molehill I totally get what you are saying re Dawson, just don't think they are going to pick him.

You'd think with the amount of stats people in the backroom they'd have analysed what is actually required/expected of a spinner in Aus. But it seems all they've done is compare heights with Ashwin.

 

[Kenneth Viljoen]

But if your spinner is not going to have any match defining impact with the ball (no matter how good they are), may as well pick the one who can bat.

Yep agree 100% , if you don't have a world class spinner and your next best option is Leach who has failed before in Australia (6 wickets @53) , the best option is going in with a spinner that can bat , South Africa did that in the 90's and early 2000's, actually won series in Pakistan and South Africa using guys like Symcox and Boje..


Personally I would take two spinners to Australia, Liam Dawson and Rehan Ahmed..

Dawson a proven County all rounder, Rehan Ahmed at 21 looks to be developing into a fine all rounder

 

[TheJediBrah]

Yep agree 100% , if you don't have a world class spinner and your next best option is Leach who has failed before in Australia (6 wickets @53) , the best option is going in with a spinner that can bat , South Africa did that in the 90's and early 2000's, actually won series in Pakistan and South Africa using guys like Symcox and Boje..

Weren't they just about the best spinners SA had though. Just so happened they could bat. From what I recall Boje in particular wasn't picked because he could bat but because he was the best spin bowler they could find (Paul Adams was an option but tended to leak runs)

 

[Kenneth Viljoen]

Weren't they just about the best spinners SA had though. Just so happened they could bat. From what I recall Boje in particular wasn't picked because he could bat but because he was the best spin bowler they could find (Paul Adams was an option but tended to leak runs)

Being able to bat in the lower order was a big requirement for 90's SA teams , it was intentional .

 

[TheJediBrah]

Being able to bat in the lower order was a big requirement for 90's SA teams , it was intentional .

I'm not convinced. Other than Paul Adams the only other spinner I remember them trying around the early 00s was Claude Hendereon and he wasn't much better than Boje. Pretty sure Boje was about the best they had

 

[Kenneth Viljoen]

I'm not convinced. Other than Paul Adams the only other spinner I remember them trying around the early 00s was Claude Hendereon and he wasn't much better than Boje. Pretty sure Boje was about the best they had

Well spin wasnt our strong suit back then , so the difference between the best spinner and a spinner that can bat won't make much of a difference in most cases , Henderson and Eksteen were more prolific in domestic cricket than Symcox and Boje but the latter had better test careers..
Without deviating from the point of my original post , there is a clear lack of spin options coming through in England's domestic circuit, so England are better off choosing a spinner that can bat . Selecting Leach is just repeating the same thing and expecting a different result .

 

[Chin Music]

Without deviating from the point of my original post , there is a clear lack of spin options coming through in England's domestic circuit, so England are better off choosing a spinner that can bat .

It's been the case for a few years. Given that our First Class spinners will play the vast majority of games at times when there is usually no help from them, they have looked at natural attributes/talent rather than a fully developed but limited bowler. That's how England have ended up with Bashir. I am certainly not saying it is the right call and that there is a very good case for picking a batting spinner. Rehan may well end up being a good middle order player and fair enough spin bowler. He needs to work on his actual leg spinner from what I can see but he at least did bowl well in the last test that he did play last winter in Pakistan and was far better than Leach/Bashir in that match.

 

[Kenneth Viljoen]

It's been the case for a few years. Given that our First Class spinners will play the vast majority of games at times when there is usually no help from them, they have looked at natural attributes/talent rather than a fully developed but limited bowler. That's how England have ended up with Bashir. I am certainly not saying it is the right call and that there is a very good case for picking a batting spinner. Rehan may well end up being a good middle order player and fair enough spin bowler. He needs to work on his actual leg spinner from what I can see but he at least did bowl well in the last test that he did play last winter in Pakistan and was far better than Leach/Bashir in that match.

I saw in one of his recent games, Rehan Ahmed got 13 wickets and scored a hundred , and what he's like 21 ?

Leach is probably mid 30's , surely there is far more upside to playing Rehan Ahmed, and he's already been to some pretty tough places , a tour of Pakistan and India , his test bowling average is actually better than Bashir and Leach's , way more upside to giving him a run in the team.

 

[Chin Music]

I saw in one of his recent games, Rehan Ahmed got 13 wickets and scored a hundred , and what he's like 21 ?

Leach is probably mid 30's , surely there is far more upside to playing Rehan Ahmed, and he's already been to some pretty tough places , a tour of Pakistan and India , his test bowling average is actually better than Bashir and Leach's , way more upside to giving him a run in the team.

Oh sure, there's little doubt that he has lots of time on his side. The only minor thing I would say about going by his test bowling average is that his first test v Pakistan, he got a five fer with quite a lot of dross. However, that's nearly three years ago and doubtless learning and succeeding in county cricket can't be a bad thing.

 

[honestbharani]

Then why even pick a spinner. Let Root do it

Yeah I would rather pick one of their swing bowlers who maybe able to bowl long-ish spells and get some overs out of Root to make up the spinner's quota than play Bashir.

That said, they may well play on truer wickets as it ensures England attack will suffer more while Australia still have a world class attack for most conditions.

 

[Kenneth Viljoen]

Yeah I would rather pick one of their swing bowlers who maybe able to bowl long-ish spells and get some overs out of Root to make up the spinner's quota than play Bashir.

That said, they may well play on truer wickets as it ensures England attack will suffer more while Australia still have a world class attack for most conditions.

Wouldn't you want Root to focus on his batting than worrying about bowling a lot of overs ?

Australia is one of the few places where he is shy of big runs

 

[Shady Slim]

What did Jack Leach do to piss off the Baz Corporation? Surely he's still the best English spinner by miles and miles and miles.

i feel that being bald is anti bazball

 

[Red_Ink_Squid]

But if your spinner is not going to have any match defining impact with the ball (no matter how good they are), may as well pick the one who can bat.

Since they're unlikely to play Dawson this could be in Rehan's favour. Sure he's unlikely to score tons vs Hazelwood and Cummins but he may bosh a quickfire double Quiney which is more than Bashir is likely to manage.

 

[TheJediBrah]

That said, they may well play on truer wickets as it ensures England attack will suffer more while Australia still have a world class attack for most conditions.

recent history would indicate the pitches are more likely to he quite bowler friendly