kyear2
Hall of Fame Member
Can be all 3.
But now that you realise there's a gap as all rounders, you've eased up on Kallis though.
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Joel Garner vs Dennis Lillee
- Thread starter PlayerComparisons
- Start date
But now that you realise there's a gap as all rounders, you've eased up on Kallis though.
capt_Luffy
Hall of Fame Member
They have a vast gulf in their Averages as well. Ambrose played with better pacers and actually missed faaaaaaaaaarrrrrr fewer matches. Lillee loved to bowl all day.
capt_Luffy
Hall of Fame Member
We acting Brian Lara isn't an issue smh @honestbharani
Thala_0710
International Captain
subshakerz
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
The average difference isn't as big a deal to me as wickets. It's why I have Steyn ahead too.
subshakerz
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Yeah Bolo convinced me that it's fair to judge Kallis the bowler more along a normal bowling career length, as I do with Imran, hence I consider his secondary stronger now.
You see? I'm not what you paint me as.
capt_Luffy
Hall of Fame Member
The wickets have many more factors to them. Lillee played less than 65% of the available Tests, big number even excluding the WSac time games, Ambrose did over 90%. Ambrose all had better bowlers to share his wickets with than Lillee, and most of all Lillee loved to just bowl all day. 3 points in average is kinda significant tbt.
subshakerz
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Ambrose didn't have those quality bowlers in his second half career and his WPM still went way down. And you underrate the quality of pacers around Lillee, with Thommo, Gilmore, Pascal, Larson, etc it was decent competition.
As for missing tests, aside from his back injury and WSC, it's not like he was injury prone every series. He was regularly bowling marathon spells. Lillee bowling more is to his credit.
capt_Luffy
Hall of Fame Member
I was kinda shocked that Thommo played in less than 30% of Lillee's matches. Gilmore and Pascoe (I believe you meant instead of Pascal) played like 10 tests each. Ambrose began with Maco, Garner, Holding and a plethora of Great bowlers in the bench, and played almost all his games alongside Walsh. Played plenty with Bishop too. Competition is a no contest really, and despite it Ambrose had a Great WPM pre injury.
So like instead of the fitness issue he has he had no issues? Lillee bowling more is totally to his credit, but moreso it's all he has to his credit.
shortpitched713
Cricketer Of The Year
shortpitched713
Cricketer Of The Year
What's Lillee and Garner's H2H record?
Did they ever play in the same domestic competition?
Did they ever play in the same domestic competition?
subshakerz
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Sure pre injury I agree with you. But post injury he had far less competition and his WPM dropped down, and that was half his career, so I don't see this as sufficient excuse.
Lillee was just a more skilled bowler and what to me is a critical difference is that when Lilllees pace dropped post WSC, he managed to stay roughly as successful because of skill.
Ambrose when his pace dropped 95 onwards was a much more limited bowler and lacked tools to get bats out if the pitch wasnt helping him.
Coronis
Hall of Fame Member
capt_Luffy
Hall of Fame Member
Huge disagree.
Coronis
Hall of Fame Member
Tests involving both Lillee and Garner
6 matches 12 innings
Lillee 28 @ 24.35
Garner 26 @ 22.15
Notably Holding had 38 @ 17.44 in those 6 matches.
Lillee only played county once, in 1988 after Garner had retired. However, Garner did participate in the 82/83 Sheffield Shield
Garner 8 matches 15 innings 55 @ 17.74
Lillee 6 matches 11 innings 22 @ 27.50
Nobody else took 40 wickets that season, only one bowler (Rackemann 23 @ 11.91 in 3 games) averaged lower than Garner.
subshakerz
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Why? Lillee is the guy known to teach Marshall and Imran how to bowl their leg cutters. His action is considered the archetypical one for pacers. He refined it and became an expert in using the crease. He had two bouncers, etc.
Hadlee used to ask himself in tough spells what would Lillee do.
subshakerz
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
That's fine, Coronis is a reasonable poster even if I mostly disagree with him.
Johan
Hall of Fame Member
Coronis
Hall of Fame Member
Following up on this, that season the teams played 2 matches. (notably, both teams were at the very top of the ladder - unsure what the distinction between NSW making the final and SA not making it was, but NSW beat WA in the final anyway. Lillee did not play in the final, all teams played 10 games.
First match: drawn at the WACA
SA 288 (Lillee 4/72)
WA 324 (Garner 3/87)
SA 387/7d (Lillee 0/58)
WA 209/6 (Garner 4/43)
Second match: WA win at Adelaide by an innings (Garner didn’t play)