Barry Richards and Dennis Lillee vs Sunil Gavaskar and Fred Trueman

[Johan]

West Indies fell to Short pitched fast bowling for atleast 25 years, from the first time they toured Australia after the war in 1951-52, where Lindwall and Miller used borderline-bodyline on the injured Everton Weekes and Clyde Walcott, to 1954 where a fast-one from Trueman shattered an old George Headley's hand, to 1974-75 when Australia destroyed the West Indies with Lillian Thomson. Without all these events, I don't think short pitched pace bowling becomes relevant in the West Indies. Even John Snow once almost took Gavaskar's head off. That's just Cricket, if a fast bowler wants to spam short pitched deliveries....nothing can really be done.

 

[DrWolverine]

How many people did they actually kill? Now you are alleging crimes they never committed.

Anshuman Gaekwad suffered a blow to the head. 4 others got retired hurt in a match. What else do you want? They should die to prove my point?

Don’t you know the story of Nari Contractor? The guy got stuck on the head by a bouncer from Charlie Griffith. He had to undergo two surgeries. He also hit Bevan Congdon, NZ batsmen and knocked him unconscious. Do you want that to happen to Anshuman Gaekwad as well?

There are so many examples of WestIndies bowlers inflicting severe injuries back then.

Mike Gatting : nose broken
John Edrich : rib fracture
Dilip Vengsarkar : rib fracture
Graham Yallop : jaw fracture
David Hookes : jaw fracture

Roy Gilchrist, WI fast bowler did similar things as well. He bowled a beamer and hit Kripal Singh on the head. In a tour match he hit another Indian batsman with a beamer.

 

[kyear2]

So every wrong thing that happened in the past is justified? Does it apply to only sports or life in general?

How was any of this wrong.

Which team didn't it happen to at some point.

You man up, get better or you match them. It's hard ball cricket.

I remember Devon Malcolm trying to bounce out a very much post, a post peak Viv. It's a game.

 

[kyear2]

I don't think there was much wrong with Bodyline, but anyway, Australia later this year can abuse short pitched fast bowling and injure half the English bats and nobody would care, It's just the sport.

Exactly.

 

[Johan]

Anshuman Gaekwad suffered a blow to the head. 4 others got retired hurt in a match. What else do you want? They should die to prove my point?

Don’t you know the story of Nari Contractor? The guy got stuck on the head by a bouncer from Charlie Griffith. He had to undergo two surgeries. He also hit Bevan Congdon, NZ batsmen and knocked him unconscious. Do you want that to happen to Anshuman Gaekwad as well?

There are so many examples of WestIndies bowlers inflicting severe injuries back then.

Mike Gatting : nose broken
John Edrich : rib fracture
Dilip Vengsarkar : rib fracture
Graham Yallop : jaw fracture
David Hookes : jaw fracture

Roy Gilchrist, WI fast bowler did similar things as well. He bowled a beamer and hit Kripal Singh on the head. In a tour match he hit another Indian batsman with a beamer.

Richard Hadlee caused the most injuries of any Bowler since 1970

 

[sayon basak]

Anshuman Gaekwad suffered a blow to the head. 4 others got retired hurt in a match. What else do you want? They should die to prove my point?

Don’t you know the story of Nari Contractor? The guy got stuck on the head by a bouncer from Charlie Griffith. He had to undergo two surgeries. He also hit Bevan Congdon, NZ batsmen and knocked him unconscious. Do you want that to happen to Anshuman Gaekwad as well?

There are so many examples of WestIndies bowlers inflicting severe injuries back then.

Mike Gatting : nose broken
John Edrich : rib fracture
Dilip Vengsarkar : rib fracture
Graham Yallop : jaw fracture
David Hookes : jaw fracture

Roy Gilchrist, WI fast bowler did similar things as well. He bowled a beamer and hit Kripal Singh on the head. In a tour match he hit another Indian batsman with a beamer.

What do you want then? Bouncers should be banned?

And again, don't support beamers at all. But bouncers are a weapon for the fast bowlers. Let them have it.

 

[kyear2]

1-2 people called him overrated and you seem to post it every single time.

Imran Khan rated Sunil Gavaskar and Viv Richards as the two best batsmen he bowled to. Imran even rated him higher than Sachin Tendulkar.

Martin Crowe picked him in his ATG team.

Dickie Bird picked him in his ATG team.

Richie Benaud picked him in his ATG team.

Gary Sobers called him the best batsman he saw.

It's wasn't one or two people, and almost all of them were the ones who bowled to him.

Was watching Kimber the other day on his book tour, what was it he said exactly? Basically he wasn't a great first day or first session batsman, but once the assistance was gone, he was great.

And don't know what's your point, he's in my 2nd team all time as well. He was an ATG opener, and batsman, borderline top 10 for me.

Martin Crowe also called Barry the greatest post war opener, until he wrote the article for Cricinfo.

Dickie Bird also said that Barry Richards was the best batsman he ever saw.

Garry has consistently said Weekes was the best batsman he's seen, he knew where he was when he said it.

During the 70's there was no doubt who the best opener in the world was, and that's because Sunny wasn't seen as great until the conditions suited him.

Willis, Snow, Lillee, Procter, Thompson, all rated Barry higher, Lillee called him fair weather.

 

[kyear2]

Absolutely.

Clive Lloyd’s tactics of using hostile pace bowling to injure the batsmen are shameful.

That's laughable.

But what about Jaradine, Hassett, the Chappell's?

When Lindwall and Miller were using it, when the crowd was chanting kill, kill, kill when Thomo and Lillee were charging in, even Trueman apparently.

The only thing shameful is showing up for test cricket totally unprepared to face fast bowling, or quitting, personal preference really.

 

[kyear2]

How?

This was in the 1970s when there was no proper protective equipment. This men had families and came to play cricket, not get killed by beamers.

Beamers are wrong, period.

 

[Johan]

When Fred Trueman broke Headley's hand, he bowled a shorter one with pace, he had assumed Headley would be able to play the ball because, well, he's George ****ing Headley but Headley had not faced a test class fast bowler in years, was old and not equipped to face even Statham, let alone the guy often called The Next Harold Larwood.

Trueman was incredibly apologetic about it and did not bowl shorter bowls the rest of the series. This is the problem, there's no way to tell if someone wanted to hurt someone or if they did not, the same ball that would likely put me in the hospital would get effortlessly hooked to the boundary by IVA Richards, and that's the problem, it's too situation dependent if a ball is just a good short pitched delivery or an injury causing delivery, it depends on the batsman's skill and decision as much as the pace and the bounce.

 

[kyear2]

The same people who accuse BCCI of doctoring pitches because the opposition teams can’t play spin even though our batsmen did well are now okay with express fast bowlers delivering bouncers and beamers to injure batsmen because Lloyd was upset with a loss.

Don't know what's got into you today, but I'll say the only person upset about the loss isn't Lloyd.

But if we want to harp on shameful things in the '70's and 80's how about trying to hit a bowler with a bat, storming off the field because of a decision or here's my personal favorite, having the unmitigated gall to sit and type out that the Jamaican populace belong in trees in the jungle, and we all know what that means.

 

[capt_Luffy]

When Fred Trueman broke Headley's hand, he bowled a shorter one with pace, he had assumed Headley would be able to play the ball because, well, he's George ****ing Headley but Headley had not faced a test class fast bowler in years, was old and not equipped to face even Statham, let alone the guy often called The Next Harold Larwood.

Trueman was incredibly apologetic about it and did not bowl shorter bowls the rest of the series. This is the problem, there's no way to tell if someone wanted to hurt someone or if they did not, the same ball that would likely put me in the hospital would get effortlessly hooked to the boundary by IVA Richards, and that's the problem, it's too situation dependent if a ball is just a good short pitched delivery or an injury causing delivery, it depends on the batsman's skill and decision as much as the pace and the bounce.

Agreed. And I don't think a bowler should hold back anything while bowling. Sean Abbott wasn't responsible for Phil Hughes or Charlie Griffith wasn't for Nari Contractor. But, bowling with the intent to injure the batsman rather than make them play a loose short etc is wrong. Don't think it should be controversial. Trueman didn't bowl to break Headley's hand, George himself think would have preferred him to go all out. Had he bowled deliberately to hit Headley, imo that would be wrong really.

 

[kyear2]

West Indies fell to Short pitched fast bowling for atleast 25 years, from the first time they toured Australia after the war in 1951-52, where Lindwall and Miller used borderline-bodyline on the injured Everton Weekes and Clyde Walcott, to 1954 where a fast-one from Trueman shattered an old George Headley's hand, to 1974-75 when Australia destroyed the West Indies with Lillian Thomson. Without all these events, I don't think short pitched pace bowling becomes relevant in the West Indies. Even John Snow once almost took Gavaskar's head off. That's just Cricket, if a fast bowler wants to spam short pitched deliveries....nothing can really be done.

You give and take, part of the damn game.

 

[kyear2]

Anshuman Gaekwad suffered a blow to the head. 4 others got retired hurt in a match. What else do you want? They should die to prove my point?

Don’t you know the story of Nari Contractor? The guy got stuck on the head by a bouncer from Charlie Griffith. He had to undergo two surgeries. He also hit Bevan Congdon, NZ batsmen and knocked him unconscious. Do you want that to happen to Anshuman Gaekwad as well?

There are so many examples of WestIndies bowlers inflicting severe injuries back then.

Mike Gatting : nose broken
John Edrich : rib fracture
Dilip Vengsarkar : rib fracture
Graham Yallop : jaw fracture
David Hookes : jaw fracture

Roy Gilchrist, WI fast bowler did similar things as well. He bowled a beamer and hit Kripal Singh on the head. In a tour match he hit another Indian batsman with a beamer.

Ok. I really don't get your point.

And Gilchrist was out of control and was a different case all together, and least not forget that he was appropriately banished from the game, by the team.

 

[kyear2]

In any event, as per the thread.

Lillee was the GOAT before Marshall and it was beloved he took that title from Lindwall and not even Trueman.

Barry in the 70's was rated higher than Sunny, so don't see what the argument for the the other pairing.

 

[capt_Luffy]

In any event, as per the thread.

Lillee was the GOAT before Marshall and it was beloved he took that title from Lindwall and not even Trueman.

Barry in the 70's was rated higher than Sunny, so don't see what the argument for the the other pairing.

Trueman>Lillee
Gavaskar>>>>>Barry

 

[DrWolverine]

But if we want to harp on shameful things in the '70's and 80's how about trying to hit a bowler with a bat, storming off the field because of a decision

So that is shameful but a captain who wants to use his fast bowlers to injure batsmen to get a win isn’t? Okay

Here's my personal favorite, having the unmitigated gall to sit and type out that the Jamaican populace belong in trees in the jungle, and we all know what that means.

If the crowd is shouting “Kill Kill”, “Knock his head out Mike” and encouraging bowlers to injure the batsmen, they truly belong in the jungles.

 

[DrWolverine]

 

[Johan]

If the crowd is shouting “Kill Kill”, “Knock his head out Mike” and encouraging bowlers to injure the batsmen, they truly belong in the jungles.

lmfao

 

[Johan]

I'll be real here, the entire thing is overblown, if the Indian bats can't handle what the English, Australian and Carribean bats regularly had to handle with each other, maybe they should start focusing on Golf.