Fourth best spinner

[trundler]

Verity > Grimmett is the only thing I feel strongly about. Laker benefited greatly from juiced up home pitches too and his average is protected by not always playing away similar to Ashwin so I'm not sure how he's automatically better than Ash. Tayfield has low longevity. They're all close.

 

[Coronis]

I think Verity gets a little bit overrated b/c of the whole had to bowl vs Bradman thing. I think him and Grimmett are very close, but both have numbers inflated by SA (Grimmett) and India (Verity). Laker is my choice for now, Jadeja or Lyon could still surpass all 3.

 

[kyear2]

Yeah, we do that; case in point; Jadeja and Shakib. But I actually think that mostly applies to flashy players like Ponting; and many people nowadays kinda hate Ashwin and don't really appreciate his contributions properly in making India unbeatable at home. I was recently seeing a post on FB I believe on how Lyon is much better than Ashwin and a lot of Indian fans (and by that, I mean A LOT) defending the take. I think history will remember him fondly; but let's see.

Is this really a flex though? More importantly, how many away matches has he missed that protects that average of his?

If that happens less going forward, then possibly, but he's one player that can't be properly rated at this point purely by his numbers.

 

[BazBall21]

Ashwin is second too. Absolutely wild.

I think Ashwin's stock is on the rise. Kumble gave him a good fight very recently but not this week.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Is this really a flex though? More importantly, how many away matches has he missed that protects that average of his?

If that happens less going forward, then possibly, but he's one player that can't be properly rated at this point purely by his numbers.

He missed way fewer away matches than Jim Laker. And I hope you don't really believe he sits out on away matches to protect his average; not because Jadeja is a much better batsman away (not to mention fielder) and India has good pace line-up so in most conditions they opt for a single spinner; right? So let's dissect other spinners record a bit.
Jim Laker only played 4 matches in Australia and that's not because Tony Lock was an excellent batsman, but particularly because off his first series in WI, the selectors maintained the universal opinion that he won't be much useful out of slow English wickets. He played one series in Australia at his peak (and basically has the same average as Jadeja there in same no. of matches), and wasn't penetrative in SA and WI, maintaining meddling figures against not so strong batting line-ups. Throughout his whole career, he didn't played in around half the matches England played.
Hugh Tayfield averages 34+ overall against Australia. He doesn't really boosts an impressive longevity, and so basically against the 2 teams he played against; he was successful against one and wasn't against the other overall same no. of matches.
Hedily Verity averages 34+ in Australia, the only solid team he played against; as well as almost 30 against a pretty mid SA away. He was as much of a home bully as anyone.
Clarrie Grimmett averages 32+ against literally the only respectable team he played against. His averages are hugely pumped against minnows of WI and SA.
Lance Gibbs almost averages 30 in his home. He also is not really successful in Australia.
Derek Underwood got thrashed by WI, home and away. He also isn't really great in Australia and Pakistan.
Anil Kumble averages 35+ overall away, 40+ in 4 countries. Ashwin 30+, 40+ only in Australia (where he actually helped India to win 2 series) and SA. Under 30 everywhere else (England, Sri Lanka, basically these 2).

 

[capt_Luffy]

I think Ashwin's stock is on the rise. Kumble gave him a good fight very recently but not this week.

On the last poll for Best Indian Spinner; Kumble and Jadeja got 1 vote each, Bedi 2, Chandrashekhar 3 and Ashwin 18....

 

[BazBall21]

On the last poll for Best Indian Spinner; Kumble and Jadeja got 1 vote each, Bedi 2, Chandrashekhar 3 and Ashwin 18....

That's what I mean. There was a poll in the summer of 2022 that was a lot closer.

It was Ashwin 15-13 Kumble.

 

[capt_Luffy]

That's what I mean. There was a poll in the summer of 2022 that was a lot closer.

It was Ashwin 15-13 Kumble.

Yeah, I just checked that poll and apparently I voted for Kumble their as well . I should probably apologize to Subs as well for that recent Kumble vs Ashwin argument....

 

[Coronis]

Hedily Verity averages 34+ in Australia, the only solid team he played against; as well as almost 30 against a pretty mid SA away. He was as much of a home bully as anyone.
Clarrie Grimmett averages 32+ against literally the only respectable team he played against. His averages are hugely pumped against minnows of WI and SA.

I like the inconsistency.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I like the inconsistency.

Dude I called WI minnows, with only 1 batsmen lifting the whole team. SA were mid, but with Nourse, Mitchell and Rowan; they weren't minnows. Anyways, do you have anything to add on my criticism proper?

 

[kyear2]

He missed way fewer away matches than Jim Laker. And I hope you don't really believe he sits out on away matches to protect his average; not because Jadeja is a much better batsman away (not to mention fielder) and India has good pace line-up so in most conditions they opt for a single spinner; right? So let's dissect other spinners record a bit.
Jim Laker only played 4 matches in Australia and that's not because Tony Lock was an excellent batsman, but particularly because off his first series in WI, the selectors maintained the universal opinion that he won't be much useful out of slow English wickets. He played one series in Australia at his peak (and basically has the same average as Jadeja there in same no. of matches), and wasn't penetrative in SA and WI, maintaining meddling figures against not so strong batting line-ups. Throughout his whole career, he didn't played in around half the matches England played.
Hugh Tayfield averages 34+ overall against Australia. He doesn't really boosts an impressive longevity, and so basically against the 2 teams he played against; he was successful against one and wasn't against the other overall same no. of matches.
Hedily Verity averages 34+ in Australia, the only solid team he played against; as well as almost 30 against a pretty mid SA away. He was as much of a home bully as anyone.
Clarrie Grimmett averages 32+ against literally the only respectable team he played against. His averages are hugely pumped against minnows of WI and SA.
Lance Gibbs almost averages 30 in his home. He also is not really successful in Australia.
Derek Underwood got thrashed by WI, home and away. He also isn't really great in Australia and Pakistan.
Anil Kumble averages 35+ overall away, 40+ in 4 countries. Ashwin 30+, 40+ only in Australia (where he actually helped India to win 2 series) and SA. Under 30 everywhere else (England, Sri Lanka, basically these 2).

Will respond in depth to this later.

But for the first paragraph, no I don't think it's to protect his average. But it has inadvertantly done so, especially when not playing in less skin friendly conditions. So basically he plays at home on "doctored pitches" and in the road in spin friendly conditions when two spinners are warranted. You don't see how that's misleading to a certain extent. Almost like McGill.

Also, think about it, what if Australia did that vs Warne and just didn't okay him vs India, or Murali in Australia.

And not to pile on, your and India's reasoning is akin to not playing McGrath because the other guy was a better batsman. That would never have happened because he's Glenn ****ing McGrath. The 4th best spinner doesn't play overseas because the other guy is almost as good and can bat and field better? Nah......

 

[Migara]

Is this really a flex though? More importantly, how many away matches has he missed that protects that average of his?

If that happens less going forward, then possibly, but he's one player that can't be properly rated at this point purely by his numbers.

It is funny that this argument is not used when discussing Lillee

 

[capt_Luffy]

Will respond in depth to this later.

But for the first paragraph, no I don't think it's to protect his average. But it has inadvertantly done so, especially when not playing in less skin friendly conditions. So basically he plays at home on "doctored pitches" and in the road in spin friendly conditions when two spinners are warranted. You don't see how that's misleading to a certain extent. Almost like McGill.

Also, think about it, what if Australia did that vs Warne and just didn't okay him vs India, or Murali in Australia.

And not to pile on, your and India's reasoning is akin to not playing McGrath because the other guy was a better batsman. That would never have happened because he's Glenn ****ing McGrath. The 4th best spinner doesn't play overseas because the other guy is almost as good and can bat and field better? Nah......

I think you are missing a vital point here, Ashwin is not ****ing Glenn McGrath; no one said that. Also, most of the matches he played outside weren't necessarily on spin friendly pitches, but when team management gave more value to his bowling than Jadeja's overall skills, Jadeja was out of form or injured. Jadeja isn't always a much worse bowling option to begin with; for supporting role (which is needed away) he is arguably better, bowls left arm, is an much much superior no. 7 and is a gun fielder. Those two hardly played together away. I think I won't have to tell you, but Warne and Murali are on another tier, and not to mention both haven't played too many matches in India (Australia for Murali's case too, he played only 5 there). I don't think I have to tell you why Sri Lanka couldn't drop their one of only 2 proper Test standard bowlers anywhere (him being one of the AT best be damned); and I don't know dropping World's best spinner in specially spin friendly conditions makes any sense by Australia. Ashwin still has played more in Australia and South Africa than Warne or Murali in India. Jadeja has anything and everything but bowling over Ashwin, MacGill literally had nothing over Warne. The 4th best spinner doesn't always plays away because his team has another top 20 spinner, who also is a top 10 all rounder and a gun fielder.
As I said prior, if anyone really suffers from this syndrome, it's Jim Laker.

 

[kyear2]

It is funny that this argument is not used when discussing Lillee

You mean for back surgeries and injuries?

 

[Migara]

You mean for back surgeries and injuries?

Co-inciding with SC and WI tours, yeah. I mean them.

 

[Coronis]

Dude I called WI minnows, with only 1 batsmen lifting the whole team. SA were mid, but with Nourse, Mitchell and Rowan; they weren't minnows. Anyways, do you have anything to add on my criticism proper?

You literally called SA minnows one paragraph later mate, chill.

And no, you’re basically saying each of them has flaws which is true. Its also true of Ashwin, the only major candidate not in your post.

 

[capt_Luffy]

You literally called SA minnows one paragraph later mate, chill.

And no, you’re basically saying each of them has flaws which is true. Its also true of Ashwin, the only major candidate not in your post.

First of, no; when comparing Grum's record, I pointed out WI to be minnows and SA; probably should had worded that better, there was an unnecessary of.

Second of, yes; I am exactly saying that. No matter how you spin it, Ashwin's away record is mid. Kyear2 was also saying that, bitching on him being protected, so I just pointed out how protected Laker was, and the negatives of other top spinners. That's it. I posted that response specifically as Kyear2 was dissecting only Ashwin and basically wrote off his home record. So, to be fair:
Ravichandran Ashwin averages close to 50 in SA over a decent no of matches. No matter how dire the wickets are, that's a bad record. In Australia again, he averages 40+ and despite having some good games, can't really be called for leading the attack away. In England, while his average is really respectable; his contributions in the games have not always been so. Overall, it can't be argued that an away average of almost 40 in SENA is anything but stellar.

 

[kyear2]

First of, no; when comparing Grum's record, I pointed out WI to be minnows and SA; probably should had worded that better, there was an unnecessary of.

Second of, yes; I am exactly saying that. No matter how you spin it, Ashwin's away record is mid. Kyear2 was also saying that, bitching on him being protected, so I just pointed out how protected Laker was, and the negatives of other top spinners. That's it. I posted that response specifically as Kyear2 was dissecting only Ashwin and basically wrote off his home record. So, to be fair:
Ravichandran Ashwin averages close to 50 in SA over a decent no of matches. No matter how dire the wickets are, that's a bad record. In Australia again, he averages 40+ and despite having some good games, can't really be called for leading the attack away. In England, while his average is really respectable; his contributions in the games have not always been so. Overall, it can't be argued that an away average of almost 40 in SENA is anything but stellar.

Pointing out facts is bitching now? He has little away record because he wasn't selected. How can you be one of the top 5 spinners ever and are second option away.

All I said. But bitching, cool.

 

[OverratedSanity]

The thing about Laker is that he benefitted from dustbowl home pitches arguably more than guys like Herath/Ashwin have throughout his career. Casuals wouldn't think that because it's England which is more associated with seam and swing, but it's true.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Surprised I'm one of only two guys to vote for Tayfield but I get it, it's from the fossil era and no one here has watched him obviously. Great record though, and some amazing match winning spells.

Gibbs' career is underrated on here. He had an enormously long career which hides his great feats under that meh overall career average a bit. For the first decade or so of his career, his numbers were as good as any spinner ever. Wonder how he would be remembered if he retired after 1968 when his record stood at 183 wickets @24, most of it in a very flat and slow era.

Also feel Chandrasekhar is a sneaky solid candidate here even though he wasnt in the options, because of his memorable match winning spells overseas.