Where would you group Murali/Warne

[Line and Length]

It's interesting that supporters of spin will sometimes refer to their effectiveness on the 5th day of a Test. With Marshall. McGrath and Hadlee the game would be over inside 4 days.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

2nd tier, With Mcgrath and Donald.

 

[ataraxia]

It's interesting that supporters of spin will sometimes refer to their effectiveness on the 5th day of a Test. With Marshall. McGrath and Hadlee the game would be over inside 4 days.

Against a similarly ATG batting lineup?

 

[kyear2]

Against a similarly ATG batting lineup?

Don't ATG spinners tend to struggle more against ATG batsmen than the bowlers do?

 

[kyear2]

I would like to point out though, that all types of players have their place in the game, all those comparisons that rates these things, tend to over look that.

A good team needs good aggressive batsmen, and also a grinder or two for stability. It needs a useful 5th bowler the same way it needs a decent no. 8 or 9, and good support in the field and slips in particular. A spinner is required, but for me, none of the great ones quite matches up with the top tier pacers.

 

[subshakerz]

I would like to point out though, that all types of players have their place in the game, all those comparisons that rates these things, tend to over look that.

A good team needs good aggressive batsmen, and also a grinder or two for stability. It needs a useful 5th bowler the same way it needs a decent no. 8 or 9, and good support in the field and slips in particular. A spinner is required, but for me, none of the great ones quite matches up with the top tier pacers.

Along with Kyear, happy to be spearheading this point on CW. Spinners can't match pacers generally

 

[Migara]

Partly Indian batting dominance against spin, but also the side spin on Indian pitches wasnt exactly the cup of tea for Warne, and to a lesser extent Murali with certain pitches prepared that nullified him.

Murali's case it was the SG ball. Just like Kumble and Harbhajan did not like kookaburra, and found it tough in SL. Some of same Indian batsmen became clueless on SL soil against him.

 

[Migara]

But which era are we in now and most applicable for the players being discussed?

I would argue pre-war era bowlers were not as fast as in current era. Otherwise there would have been a lot of dead batsmen with poor quality pitches they had.

 

[Migara]

The problem is McGrath or Marshall are also more deadly on a scuffed last day wicket too. Maybe not quite as much as Murali/Warne, but the point is they are never nullified any day of the test unless the wicket is completely dead.

That's why you throw in Imran in the mix. Deadly on 4th innings pitches with reverse swing. That is one reason he should be among top 5 pacers all time.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I would argue pre-war era bowlers were not as fast as in current era. Otherwise there would have been a lot of dead batsmen with poor quality pitches they had.

I think as far as I have read, the pitches weren't really suitable for pacers. Bowlers like Larwood and Martindale, if to go by anything, were probably capable of bowling 140+ consistently

 

[Migara]

Don't ATG spinners tend to struggle more against ATG batsmen than the bowlers do?

Not necessarily. Ponting rarely struggled against ATG pacers. He only struggled against a tier 2 spinner and a tier zillion fast bowler. Kallis rarely struggled against pace unless he was playing in England.

 

[capt_Luffy]

That's why you throw in Imran in the mix. Deadly on 4th innings pitches with reverse swing. That is one reason he should be among top 5 pacers all time.

1st match innings 20.52 (27.10)
2nd match innings 29.37 (26.72)
3rd match innings 21.11 (21.31)
4th match innings 48.50 (21.63)

This is (allegedly) Imran Khan's bowling averages by innings.....



(Allegedly because it was tossed by an Imran fan trying to explain his middling Away record, saying he averaged more on 4th innings due to being tired of batting; haven't verified the no.s)

 

[Migara]

1st match innings 20.52 (27.10)
2nd match innings 29.37 (26.72)
3rd match innings 21.11 (21.31)
4th match innings 48.50 (21.63)

This is (allegedly) Imran Khan's bowling averages by innings.....



(Allegedly because it was tossed by an Imran fan trying to explain his middling Away record, saying he averaged more on 4th innings due to being tired of batting; haven't verified the no.s)

Imran haven't bowled much in 4th innings if you see it more closely. And he had to compete with Wasim and Qadir for wickets in such conditions too.

The third innings stats show what he was capable on wearing wickets. The lack of bowling in 4th innings show that his team has dominated a lot during his days. We know he was brilliant with new ball too.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Imran haven't bowled much in 4th innings if you see it more closely. And he had to compete with Wasim and Qadir for wickets in such conditions too.

The third innings stats show what he was capable on wearing wickets. The lack of bowling in 4th innings show that his team has dominated a lot during his days. We know he was brilliant with new ball too.

No matter how you spin it; that 4th innings stat is awful by any measure. Akram wasn't present for majority of Imran's career and Qadir wasn't the most dependable bowler.

 

[kyear2]

Along with Kyear, happy to be spearheading this point on CW. Spinners can't match pacers generally

No no, not looking to spear head anything (else) lol. Think they were great, just that the top 2 had a few holes in their records that the top pacers don't, and are generally not as efficient.

 

[Patience and Accuracy+Gut]

I think as far as I have read, the pitches weren't really suitable for pacers. Bowlers like Larwood and Martindale, if to go by anything, were probably capable of bowling 140+ consistently

Pitches were flat decks after WW1 anyway. Larwood was probably capable of bowling 145 kmph+ on consistent basis. Find it hard to argue anyone pre-Thommo actually bowled faster than Larwood.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Pitches were flat decks after WW1 anyway. Larwood was probably capable of bowling 145 kmph+ on consistent basis. Find it hard to argue anyone pre-Thommo actually bowled faster than Larwood.

Have read arguments for Frank Tyson, Wes Hall and surprisingly enough, Ernie Jones.

 

[Patience and Accuracy+Gut]

Have read arguments for Frank Tyson, Wes Hall and surprisingly enough, Ernie Jones.

Tyson definitely deserves a argument. Tbh might have actually been quicker than Thommo actually. By all accounts, Hall was easily slower than Tyson and Kortright was easily regarded as quicker than Jones. Don’t think Korty would have been capable of bowling anything close to Larwood.

 

[subshakerz]

No matter how you spin it; that 4th innings stat is awful by any measure. Akram wasn't present for majority of Imran's career and Qadir wasn't the most dependable bowler.

We are arguing Warne/Murali vs McGrath/Marshall though and the latter are superior in all innings almost.

It is a fair knock on Imran, though frankly he hardly bowled in the 4th innings. And in the 1st innings he was superlatively superior to Marshall, McGrath, Hadlee, Steyn and Ambrose. He has a bit of an imbalance in that sense.

 

[capt_Luffy]

We are arguing Warne/Murali vs McGrath/Marshall though and the latter are superior in all innings almost.

It is a fair knock on Imran, though frankly he hardly bowled in the 4th innings. And in the 1st innings he was superlatively superior to Marshall, McGrath, Hadlee, Steyn and Ambrose. He has a bit of an imbalance in that sense.

I wasn't particularly comparing Imran with the others. Migara commented on how Imran would be deadly on the 4th innings; which by all accounts he should be with his reverse swing, but wasn't. And terribly so. I just pointed that out.