Where would you group Murali/Warne

[Migara]

Genuinely surprised by the result and so many think Murali/Warne belong in the top tier.

May be because they can do things when everything fails just by bowling and bowling and bowling, which faster bowlers cannot do.

 

[kyear2]

Great I am glad you adjusted Imran ahead of Murali/Warne.

Tbf, I did say that it varied.

But yeah, the two spinners got destroyed by Lara, India and with regards to Murali, Australia. That's a bit too much to overlook to be in the top tier imho

 

[subshakerz]

Tbf, I did say that it varied.

But yeah, the two spinners got destroyed by Lara, India and with regards to Murali, Australia. That's a bit too much to overlook to be in the top tier imho

Yes, we have agreed before, spinners carry significant handicaps.

 

[subshakerz]

May be because they can do things when everything fails just by bowling and bowling and bowling, which faster bowlers cannot do.

Sure, but by the same token, neither Murali or Warne are remotely as threatening as the pacers on a 1st day pitch unless its in the SC.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Sure, but by the same token, neither Murali or Warne are remotely as threatening as the pacers on a 1st day pitch unless its in the SC.

Yeah, but in SC I can't think of any deadlier bowler in the 5th Day....

 

[subshakerz]

Yeah, but in SC I can't think of any deadlier bowler in the 5th Day....

Well, I would take McGrath or Marshall over Murali or Warne in India any day.

 

[kyear2]

Yeah, but in SC I can't think of any deadlier bowler in the 5th Day....

The provisions though, 5th day and subcontinent. Less than a quarter of all tests and 1/5 of the days and hope you're the one bowling.

 

[capt_Luffy]

The provisions though, 5th day and subcontinent. Less than a quarter of all tests and 1/5 of the days and hope you're the one bowling.

Subs commented on the spinners unreliability in SENA in the 1st Day, I just said they're similarly more important in SC on the 5th Day..... Also, I would like to also state that, post War is a pacer dominated era entirely; but pre War was definitely dominated by spinners. Era is definitely a factor here

 

[capt_Luffy]

Well, I would take McGrath or Marshall over Murali or Warne in India any day.

Anyone would while playing against India; but if you aren't then I am not so sure. Do you think Marshall or McGrath would be more deadly than an Ashwin in a Nagpur turner? Are the conditions very specific? Definitely yes, and that's why McGrath/Marshall are atleast 3 tiers above Ashwin.

 

[Migara]

Well, I would take McGrath or Marshall over Murali or Warne in India any day.

Don't think any other non-Indian player would stand against them on Indian pitches.

 

[kyear2]

Subs commented on the spinners unreliability in SENA in the 1st Day, I just said they're similarly more important in SC on the 5th Day..... Also, I would like to also state that, post War is a pacer dominated era entirely; but pre War was definitely dominated by spinners. Era is definitely a factor here

But which era are we in now and most applicable for the players being discussed?

 

[subshakerz]

Anyone would while playing against India; but if you aren't then I am not so sure. Do you think Marshall or McGrath would be more deadly than an Ashwin in a Nagpur turner? Are the conditions very specific? Definitely yes, and that's why McGrath/Marshall are atleast 3 tiers above Ashwin.

This is a red herring.

Ashwin I would take over all of them in Indian conditions.

But Marshall and McGrath are better in India, which is why Murali/Warne cant be considered fully SC dominant.

 

[kyear2]

Anyone would while playing against India; but if you aren't then I am not so sure. Do you think Marshall or McGrath would be more deadly than an Ashwin in a Nagpur turner? Are the conditions very specific? Definitely yes, and that's why McGrath/Marshall are atleast 3 tiers above Ashwin.

Does the Nagour turner help India through? You'll win at home but have the potential to be routed elsewhere with more helpful pace conditions.

 

[subshakerz]

Don't think any other non-Indian player would stand against them on Indian pitches.

Partly Indian batting dominance against spin, but also the side spin on Indian pitches wasnt exactly the cup of tea for Warne, and to a lesser extent Murali with certain pitches prepared that nullified him.

 

[subshakerz]

Subs commented on the spinners unreliability in SENA in the 1st Day, I just said they're similarly more important in SC on the 5th Day..... Also, I would like to also state that, post War is a pacer dominated era entirely; but pre War was definitely dominated by spinners. Era is definitely a factor here

The problem is McGrath or Marshall are also more deadly on a scuffed last day wicket too. Maybe not quite as much as Murali/Warne, but the point is they are never nullified any day of the test unless the wicket is completely dead.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Does the Nagour turner help India through? You'll win at home but have the potential to be routed elsewhere with more helpful pace conditions.

I am not arguing that. I am arguing that the ineffectiveness of Murali/Warne on 1st Day in SENA isn't a good point.

 

[capt_Luffy]

The problem is McGrath or Marshall are also more deadly on a scuffed last day wicket too. Maybe not quite as much as Murali/Warne, but the point is they are never nullified unless the wicket is completely dead.

In completely dead wickets they're still better than Murali/Warne. That's not the issue, but 1st Day SENA effectiveness is not a good point.

 

[subshakerz]

In completely dead wickets they're still better than Murali/Warne. That's not the issue, but 1st Day SENA effectiveness is not a good point.

Why isnt it? I think you are underestimating how big a factor this is.

Warne averages 27 and Murali 26 in the 1st innings of tests. They effectively are not worldclass level until maybe late day 2 or day 3 of a test.

That's a big hindrance. You win many games on Day 1 rather than later.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Why isnt it? I think you are underestimating how big a factor this is.

Warne averages 27 and Murali 26 in the 1st innings of tests. They effectively are not worldclass level until maybe late day 2 or day 3 of a test.

That's a big hindrance. You win many games on Day 1 rather than later.

Those averages I don't think are specifically bad, especially when you consider that Warne averages 25.4 overall...

 

[subshakerz]

Those averages I don't think are specifically bad, especially when you consider that Warne averages 25.4 overall...

They aren't bad but we are talking top tier ATG level. Btw Warne averages 28 in the second innings also.

These are hindrances to their effectiveness and in the context of a game, first day/innings bowling performance is critical. It sets up the game.