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Top Five Most Underrated Cricketers Ever.

cnerd123

likes this
My point is he was a stock bowler because he wasn't as good as a strike bowler.. The "91 SR due to being a stock bowler" makes no sense. And yes, he might've been a better pacer than a spinner, but you have to evaluate the overall career at the end of the day.
If he average a SR of 120 as a stock bowler and 60 as a strike bowler, bowls an equal amount of both, his SR would average out to 90.

You can't just read the 90 and outright rule him out as a strike bowler. He was capable of both roles.

How about this virya - use your database and spreadsheets and work out how much sobers averages with the ball as a spinner and as a fast bowler. That information is a lot more telling than just his generic SR.
 

smash84

The Tiger King
Yeah, stock bowler or no he couldn't or didn't get wickets very cheap nor very quick. So yeah, while he was a great all rounder (arguably and probably the greatest ever) let's not over estimate his bowling. We've had people on this forum claim that he used to bowl fast on spinning wickets and spin on pacy wickets in order to justify his average or sr. In the process making sobers look like an idiot
 

cnerd123

likes this
FFS Sobers has 6 five wicket hauls. If he actually always struck at 1 wicket per 90 balls that would have taken him 70 overs each time.

I mean, just look at all these bowling efforts:

4th Test: India v West Indies at Chennai, Jan 21-26, 1959 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
1st Test: West Indies v India at Port of Spain, Feb 16-20, 1962 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
5th Test: West Indies v India at Kingston, Apr 13-18, 1962 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
3rd Test: England v West Indies at Birmingham, Jul 4-9, 1963 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
4th Test: England v West Indies at Leeds, Aug 4-8, 1966 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
2nd Test: India v West Indies at Kolkata, Dec 31, 1966 - Jan 5, 1967 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
1st Test: Australia v West Indies at Brisbane, Dec 6-10, 1968 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
3rd Test: England v West Indies at Leeds, Jul 10-15, 1969 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
1st Test: England v West Indies at The Oval, Jul 26-31, 1973 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

He clearly could take wickets at a nice strike rate. He was a very capable bowler. Wasn't one of the best WI produced, wasn't even the best in those teams, but definitely up to Test quality and not someone who should be written off because he ended up with a career SR of 90. That was a result of him bowling long spells holding up one end tight and building pressure for other bowlers to strike, like these:

1st Test: West Indies v Pakistan at Bridgetown, Jan 17-23, 1958 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
2nd Test: West Indies v Pakistan at Port of Spain, Feb 5-11, 1958 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
2nd Test: India v West Indies at Kanpur, Dec 12-17, 1958 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
4th Test: Australia v West Indies at Adelaide, Jan 27-Feb 1, 1961 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
3rd Test: West Indies v India at Bridgetown, Mar 23-28, 1962 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
3rd Test: England v West Indies at Leeds, Jul 10-15, 1969 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

^and that's just a handful. The amount of times Sobers has gone at less than 2 RPO in entire innings is insane.

His career economy rate is 2.22. He played in an era of dull cricket. He often did the holding job. Despite that he averages 32 with the ball and has 6 test five-fers. He definitely could take wickets. To write off his bowling ability simply on statistics is absolutely ludicrous.
 

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
Yeah, stock bowler or no he couldn't or didn't get wickets very cheap nor very quick. So yeah, while he was a great all rounder (arguably and probably the greatest ever) let's not over estimate his bowling. We've had people on this forum claim that he used to bowl fast on spinning wickets and spin on pacy wickets in order to justify his average or sr. In the process making sobers look like an idiot
The point of that isn't that he was an idiot. It was a team balance thing.

Surely you get that. I'm not sure if it's true but it makes sense.
 

Debris

International 12th Man
FFS Sobers has 6 five wicket hauls. If he actually always struck at 1 wicket per 90 balls that would have taken him 70 overs each time.

I mean, just look at all these bowling efforts:

4th Test: India v West Indies at Chennai, Jan 21-26, 1959 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
1st Test: West Indies v India at Port of Spain, Feb 16-20, 1962 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
5th Test: West Indies v India at Kingston, Apr 13-18, 1962 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
3rd Test: England v West Indies at Birmingham, Jul 4-9, 1963 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
4th Test: England v West Indies at Leeds, Aug 4-8, 1966 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
2nd Test: India v West Indies at Kolkata, Dec 31, 1966 - Jan 5, 1967 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
1st Test: Australia v West Indies at Brisbane, Dec 6-10, 1968 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
3rd Test: England v West Indies at Leeds, Jul 10-15, 1969 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
1st Test: England v West Indies at The Oval, Jul 26-31, 1973 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

He clearly could take wickets at a nice strike rate. He was a very capable bowler. Wasn't one of the best WI produced, wasn't even the best in those teams, but definitely up to Test quality and not someone who should be written off because he ended up with a career SR of 90. That was a result of him bowling long spells holding up one end tight and building pressure for other bowlers to strike, like these:

1st Test: West Indies v Pakistan at Bridgetown, Jan 17-23, 1958 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
2nd Test: West Indies v Pakistan at Port of Spain, Feb 5-11, 1958 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
2nd Test: India v West Indies at Kanpur, Dec 12-17, 1958 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
4th Test: Australia v West Indies at Adelaide, Jan 27-Feb 1, 1961 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
3rd Test: West Indies v India at Bridgetown, Mar 23-28, 1962 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
3rd Test: England v West Indies at Leeds, Jul 10-15, 1969 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

^and that's just a handful. The amount of times Sobers has gone at less than 2 RPO in entire innings is insane.

His career economy rate is 2.22. He played in an era of dull cricket. He often did the holding job. Despite that he averages 32 with the ball and has 6 test five-fers. He definitely could take wickets. To write off his bowling ability simply on statistics is absolutely ludicrous.
Sobers did play in an era reknown for very slow batting.
 

Dan

Hall of Fame Member
The point of that isn't that he was an idiot. It was a team balance thing.

Surely you get that. I'm not sure if it's true but it makes sense.
Yeah, Sobers bowling fast on spinning wickets = picking 2 specialist pacers + 2 specialist spinners + Sobers as the third quick. Sobers bowling spin on pacey wickets = picking 4 specialist quicks + Sobers as a spinner.
 

Debris

International 12th Man
FFS Sobers has 6 five wicket hauls. If he actually always struck at 1 wicket per 90 balls that would have taken him 70 overs each time.

I mean, just look at all these bowling efforts:

4th Test: India v West Indies at Chennai, Jan 21-26, 1959 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
1st Test: West Indies v India at Port of Spain, Feb 16-20, 1962 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
5th Test: West Indies v India at Kingston, Apr 13-18, 1962 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
3rd Test: England v West Indies at Birmingham, Jul 4-9, 1963 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
4th Test: England v West Indies at Leeds, Aug 4-8, 1966 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
2nd Test: India v West Indies at Kolkata, Dec 31, 1966 - Jan 5, 1967 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
1st Test: Australia v West Indies at Brisbane, Dec 6-10, 1968 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
3rd Test: England v West Indies at Leeds, Jul 10-15, 1969 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
1st Test: England v West Indies at The Oval, Jul 26-31, 1973 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

He clearly could take wickets at a nice strike rate. He was a very capable bowler. Wasn't one of the best WI produced, wasn't even the best in those teams, but definitely up to Test quality and not someone who should be written off because he ended up with a career SR of 90. That was a result of him bowling long spells holding up one end tight and building pressure for other bowlers to strike, like these:

1st Test: West Indies v Pakistan at Bridgetown, Jan 17-23, 1958 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
2nd Test: West Indies v Pakistan at Port of Spain, Feb 5-11, 1958 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
2nd Test: India v West Indies at Kanpur, Dec 12-17, 1958 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
4th Test: Australia v West Indies at Adelaide, Jan 27-Feb 1, 1961 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
3rd Test: West Indies v India at Bridgetown, Mar 23-28, 1962 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
3rd Test: England v West Indies at Leeds, Jul 10-15, 1969 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

^and that's just a handful. The amount of times Sobers has gone at less than 2 RPO in entire innings is insane.

His career economy rate is 2.22. He played in an era of dull cricket. He often did the holding job. Despite that he averages 32 with the ball and has 6 test five-fers. He definitely could take wickets. To write off his bowling ability simply on statistics is absolutely ludicrous.
Sobers did play in an era reknown for very slow batting.
 

viriya

International Captain
FFS Sobers has 6 five wicket hauls. If he actually always struck at 1 wicket per 90 balls that would have taken him 70 overs each time.

I mean, just look at all these bowling efforts:

4th Test: India v West Indies at Chennai, Jan 21-26, 1959 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
1st Test: West Indies v India at Port of Spain, Feb 16-20, 1962 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
5th Test: West Indies v India at Kingston, Apr 13-18, 1962 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
3rd Test: England v West Indies at Birmingham, Jul 4-9, 1963 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
4th Test: England v West Indies at Leeds, Aug 4-8, 1966 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
2nd Test: India v West Indies at Kolkata, Dec 31, 1966 - Jan 5, 1967 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
1st Test: Australia v West Indies at Brisbane, Dec 6-10, 1968 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
3rd Test: England v West Indies at Leeds, Jul 10-15, 1969 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
1st Test: England v West Indies at The Oval, Jul 26-31, 1973 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

He clearly could take wickets at a nice strike rate. He was a very capable bowler. Wasn't one of the best WI produced, wasn't even the best in those teams, but definitely up to Test quality and not someone who should be written off because he ended up with a career SR of 90. That was a result of him bowling long spells holding up one end tight and building pressure for other bowlers to strike, like these:

1st Test: West Indies v Pakistan at Bridgetown, Jan 17-23, 1958 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
2nd Test: West Indies v Pakistan at Port of Spain, Feb 5-11, 1958 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
2nd Test: India v West Indies at Kanpur, Dec 12-17, 1958 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
4th Test: Australia v West Indies at Adelaide, Jan 27-Feb 1, 1961 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
3rd Test: West Indies v India at Bridgetown, Mar 23-28, 1962 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
3rd Test: England v West Indies at Leeds, Jul 10-15, 1969 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

^and that's just a handful. The amount of times Sobers has gone at less than 2 RPO in entire innings is insane.

His career economy rate is 2.22. He played in an era of dull cricket. He often did the holding job. Despite that he averages 32 with the ball and has 6 test five-fers. He definitely could take wickets. To write off his bowling ability simply on statistics is absolutely ludicrous.
6 5 wkt/innings in 93 tests doesn't really say anything.. Sobers did have a few series where he dominated with both bat and ball.. Only player aside from Botham to get 100 runs + 5 wickets (total in match, not in innings) 7 times..
 

watson

Banned
Might be worth while having a look at Sobers bowl.....


Despite Sobers being in the twilight of his career (1973), he still looks pretty good to me. Might not be up to new-ball standard, but could easily fullfill the role of first change seamer without too many issues I reckon.
 

viriya

International Captain
Might be worth while having a look at Sobers bowl.....


Despite Sobers being in the twilight of his career (1973), he still looks pretty good to me. Might not be up to new-ball standard, but could easily fullfill the role of first change seamer without too many issues I reckon.
Nice.. I wonder whether you can estimate speeds based on videos like these..
 

watson

Banned
Nice.. I wonder whether you can estimate speeds based on videos like these..
I'm pretty sure that there are computer programmes which do that kind of thing. However, judging by where the keeper and slips are standing, and by the type of dismissals, I think that low 130s is a safe bet.

All three of Sober's dismissals though were caused by swing so pace is less of an issue anyway. It was obvious to me that the English batsman were having real trouble with his late inswing - something that was expected of left armers of that era. Hayes did get caught at third slip but only because he played down the wrong line to an unusually straight ball that took off.
 
Last edited:

The Sean

Cricketer Of The Year
No one says his record lies just that you don't understand it. Sobers being a new ball bowler says absolutely nothing about the bowling of the time. How could it? Hall and Griffith were in the same side. Gilchrist would've too except he was a mad arse. Eng had Trueman and Statham and Bailey (as well as others like Rhodes) Aus had Davo and McKenzie and SA Adcock and Heine. NZ had Bruce Taylor. You know some reading before posting would inform the latter; possibly even making it redundant.
Old Wilf's career was bloody long, but it wasn't THAT long.
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
Can we all agree that Sobers and Kallis aren't in the top five underrated cricketers of all time, at least? Being underrated might be a fairly nebulous idea, but there's near universal agreement that they're the two premier batting all-rounders of all-time.

& a few of the more mature posters here have been lucky enough to see both.
 
Last edited:

harsh.ag

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Yes, the thread title!

So far, I have listed, at various times, Jeffrey Stollmeyer and Khan Mohammad, and endorsed Brian Statham.

Let me add to that Bruce Taylor from New Zealand, who seems to have been a valuable cricketer, especially with the ball. Haven't heard much about him at all, strange considering that New Zealand pace stocks have had few better historically.

No love for Bruce Taylor, then?
 

The Sean

Cricketer Of The Year
:laugh: I think you know who I mean but will clarify Harold Rhodes. I also forgot to add Snow and Willis in that little lot.
Ha ha indeed, England have produced a fair collection of cricketers named Rhodes. And I imagine that old Wilfred would still have fancied his chances alongside Harold in '59. He was only 81 after all.
 

kyear2

Cricketer Of The Year
Clive Lloyd, one of the great under appreciated batsmen, ATG cover and slip fielder's and one of the most innovative and successful captains of all time.
 

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