***Official**** Sri Lanka in New Zealand 2014/2015

[hendrix]

Yeah would agree with that, his predominant method of movement appears to be that bit of slide/cut that takes the ball away from right handers from what I can see

That's been my observation too.

fmd there's more to fast bowling than seam or swing movement. Are all you batsmen or something?

Right, and Wagner's cut and execution of plans is nice.

But the ball was still swinging and seaming throughout this test. I think that when those conditions are available you're better off going with someone who can exploit them.

 

[vic_orthdox]

That's been my observation too.



Right, and Wagner's cut and execution of plans is nice.

But the ball was still swinging and seaming throughout this test. I think that when those conditions are available you're better off going with someone who can exploit them.

But you already had two pace bowlers in the side perfect for those conditions; what if they change?

It's like the teams who take a spinner out because the first day looks like a green top, but then suddenly it's spinning on days four and five. You need to pick a side that covers for plenty of eventualities.

 

[NZTailender]

But you already had two pace bowlers in the side perfect for those conditions; what if they change?

It's like the teams who take a spinner out because the first day looks like a green top, but then suddenly it's spinning on days four and five. You need to pick a side that covers for plenty of eventualities.

Jack nails it. Also funny how bowlers get changed for conditions; you don't see dour batsmen being dropped from Tests sides when presented with a flat pitch, giving their spot to some L/O bash hero.

 

[Athlai]

Jack nails it. Also funny how bowlers get changed for conditions; you don't see dour batsmen being dropped from Tests sides when presented with a flat pitch, giving their spot to some L/O bash hero.

But you do see batsman averaging 35 or so getting pushed out of good teams when there are domestic batsman who are pushing for the same spot.

...I mean not in NZ, but I'm sure it's happened somewhere.

 

[NZTailender]

But you do see batsman averaging 35 or so getting pushed out of good teams when there are domestic batsman who are pushing for the same spot.

...I mean not in NZ, but I'm sure it's happened somewhere.

Depends on the team, and it depends on the batsman knocking the door down- if they're knocking the door down. Bracewell's had a great start to the PS season, but I don't consider it enough yet to warrant dropping someone who has averaged 27 this year and just under 30 for the last 18 months. That's dropping a batsman averaging 40 btw for comparison.

 

[vic_orthdox]

Two further points, before I **** off and start getting pissed for NYE.

- Over the long term, you want to select an XI that can go anywhere and win. It's the same reason why NZ made the right decision to persevere with Boult in the UAE; he's your second best bowler, maybe not in those conditions, but you need to expose him to them rather than hide him away from them to get better, and by the end of the series he was doing really well. Fast forward 12 months, you want to be able to take the same XI everywhere and win. Maybe in twelve months that third best guy might be Henry, but Wagner reminds me a lot of Kasprowicz, who was part of maybe the most successful Australian side while Lee was sitting as 12th man.

- You pick Henry for this game because conditions suit, not because he's definitely the third best quick. He's basically got a Test in favourable conditions to prove himself, a ticket for selfish bowling and hardly the environment you want to provide for a young talented quick who is the future. You also send a message to the rest of the team that the guy who does the graft work for the rest of the attack won't be rewarded, that's a **** culture to build in the side. Guys should understand that today might not be my day, but I'll do the work and we'll get the benefit.

 

[vic_orthdox]

But you do see batsman averaging 35 or so getting pushed out of good teams when there are domestic batsman who are pushing for the same spot.

...I mean not in NZ, but I'm sure it's happened somewhere.

There's someone averaging 35 in every Test team going around at the moment, isn't there?

 

[Bahnz]

Well, like I said from the start, I'm sure Wagner will be reselected for the next test and the England tour next year. The proof will be in the pudding, so we'll find out who's tasting it soon enough.

 

[Flem274*]

I think the response has only been as strongly anti-Wagner as it has after someone suggested he's our second best bowler and shifted goal posts around. That and we're all Matt Henry fangirls who can't wait for Southee mk II.

I think most people here can get on board with Wagner playing at the Basin, but with varying degrees of confidence in how well he is bowling right now because he really didn't bowl well in the first test and looked exactly like what you would expect a guy who got tonked in England and by a slogger spinner opener to look like. Those are really worrying sings. Hira hasn't lasted five minutes all season until that game, but the England stint worries me more.

The jury is still out on him a bit. He had an up and down England series where he and Steve Finn competed for the title of luckiest bowler, not a great tour of England, bowled very well in Bangladesh, bowled club standard dross to the West Indies, bowled brilliantly against India, bowled well in his one test in the West Indies, didn't play in the UAE (which was infuriating) and looked short of a gallop here.

Consensus seems to be let him push through the next test then get a fix up. I'm fine with that, which is why I put it the question out there.

Wagner does have a habit of losing his rhythm completely though and it's preventing him from going from a good bowler to a very good bowler. Imagine how gun he would be if he was bowling like he did against India or in the Caribbean all the time.

 

[NZTailender]

Well, like I said from the start, I'm sure Wagner will be reselected for the next test and the England tour next year. The proof will be in the pudding, so we'll find out who's tasting it soon enough.

And if he fails miserably, then he'll deserve to be dropped. But at the moment, he doesn't, so he shouldn't.

 

[Flem274*]

One last comment - Even if Wagner got dropped next year it wouldn't necessarily signal the end. Southee and Bracewell were both mud pits with rare diamonds during their first test stints before coming back better (Bracewell is bowling very well atm and has definitely regained his line, length and outswing). Boult is our only guy to hit the ground running in test cricket in recent times.

Wagner bowls a heavy ball, gets reverse and is pretty smart. Fix his seam release up during the off season so he can get consistent shape and he's a sub 30 bowler.

P.S. Matt Henry will force his way in the team somehow. He's too good never to play test cricket. Way way too good.

 

[Athlai]

There's someone averaging 35 in every Test team going around at the moment, isn't there?

Yeah and occasionally they get replaced by someone else don't they?

 

[Days of Grace]

Blackcaps deserve team of the year over the ABs. Otherwise you would just give to rugby every year.
Don't know about the Kiwis maybe although Australia were missing Thurston and others.

I would give it to the blackcaps personally as the lads played like a team. The reason why we win is that we have so many people pulling their weight. I read today in the paper that we have gone 6 series in a row without defeat. Even the 1980s team only strung together 4 series in a row unbeaten. This is now IMHO the second best blackcaps side ever with the 1980s crew still leading the way. To overtake them we would need to win series away in Australia and England. I am not even going to bother listing SA in that list as we might as well fly to the moon first.

I don't know about that. The Australian and England sides of the mid 1980s were a lot weaker than now. Apart from Wright, Hadlee and Crowe, the current team is just about better across the board.

 

[NZTailender]

Yeah and occasionally they get replaced by someone else don't they?

Ed Cowan, but he averaged <30 in his last six tests.

Again, it's not like Wagner has averaged 35+ in the last 12-18 months.

 

[Athlai]

Ed Cowan, but he averaged <30 in his last six tests.

Again, it's not like Wagner has averaged 35+ in the last 12-18 months.

To try a different example, look at our ODI lineup. We don't even know what bowlers will make the squad let alone the final XI. This isn't due to someone being so poor they need to be dropped, but rather that there are so many people that deserve to be there.

 

[Bahnz]

Cripes, if you cut out his debut century, Rutherford averages 20 over the course of a 14 test career. That's even worse than ****ing Guptill's test record. How the hell does he keep getting selected?

 

[NZTailender]

To try a different example, look at our ODI lineup. We don't even know what bowlers will make the squad let alone the final XI. This isn't due to someone being so poor they need to be dropped, but rather that there are so many people that deserve to be there.

The difference is that the other contenders actually get ODI game time due to rotation and rest, as well as opting for more 2 seam 1 spin and 3 all rounders types of teams. Until Wagner fails hard and Henry and Bracewell actually play Tests and succeed, they don't deserve to be there really. Again, it's like Jack says: keep a consistent XI, especially if it's winning. Reward players, and not have them look over their shoulders because they're not fulfilling ATG stats.

 

[Athlai]

I don't think we should have to wait till a player fails hard with our depth at the moment. That said, I'm going to be absolutely fine with Wagner playing in Wellington, I just believe we should be weighing up our options now.

 

[Flem274*]

Cripes, if you cut out his debut century, Rutherford averages 20 over the course of a 14 test career. That's even worse than ****ing Guptill's test record. How the hell does he keep getting selected?

No one else meets Hesson's criteria. It looks like there is a line through Papps, Guptill and Brownlie both need runs with their new techniques/in their new positions, Flynn fails #shotsoffbothfeet and Redmond might be in the Papps boat.

Rutherford is going so bad Hesson's hand will be forced soon but I think he has eyes more for a Michael Bracewell position shift. We know he was hoping Macewell would pile on the runs opening the batting on the A tour but it didn't happen. Hesson wants runs as an opener, he wants adaptable batsmen and he wants technique. Until he gets all three from someone (and I know Rudds doesn't have those things) he's not going to shuffle the deck chairs on the titanic.

It's a very clinical and calm decision. Wright, Greatbatch and Bracewell would have gone through about ten people by now.

EDIT: In saying all that, Guptill in 2008 "tests are T20" mode combined with his slip catching would make for a better opener than Rutherford,, which given how anti-Guptill in tests I was at the time is depressing. At least he got an arse saving 50 every series.

 

[Bahnz]

The difference is that the other contenders actually get ODI game time due to rotation and rest, as well as opting for more 2 seam 1 spin and 3 all rounders types of teams. Until Wagner fails hard and Henry and Bracewell actually play Tests and succeed, they don't deserve to be there really. Again, it's like Jack says: keep a consistent XI, especially if it's winning. Reward players, and not have them look over their shoulders because they're not fulfilling ATG stats.

That's the whole point though, Wagner has been failing hard for months, and just because he's been failing at a different (lower) level of cricket doesn't mean that it can be completely disregarded. His tame display in the first test was just the dingle-berry on the **** cake. I have a very bad feeling that Wagner's pies will end up costing us dearly on next year's tours of England and Australia (if he lasts that long, which - given Rutherford's lingering presence in the side - he probably will), which is why I'd rather see the selectors moving towards Henry sooner rather than later. That tour is hugely important, and if the current FTP is any indicator, our last one for a long time. I want our best players on the park for it, which imo currently doesn't include Wags.