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Mark Waugh vs Damien Martyn

Who was the better player?


  • Total voters
    63

Top_Cat

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I reckon if he had got it together at Test level he would have had Hussey-esque periods where it would have seemed impossible to get him out. He was that good in my eyes. Again, it never sits well with me that he didn't get to where his ability merited in my eyes. But as TC said, he got more than enough chances and at the time of his career Australia had many options. Was wonderful against Pak and WI though so I don't buy critique against him not having the ability to play quality pace for a long time.
That's pushing it, I reckon. No Test tons against either when he was in prime position to do so. Especially in Adelaide, with the WI absolutely ripe for the picking on a road with no Ambrose to face, he stodged it and ended up short. Batted quite well in Perth and just ran out of partners, though.

Can barely a remember a single time he actually looked comfortable in Tests. Everyone still goes on about his play against the short ball but as I've said before, he really had big edges. Most bowlers knew the best way to get him was to tuck him up for a while and cut off his scoring then throw out the wide one. Couldn't resist. By the time he fixed it, was too late.
 

abmk

State 12th Man
LOL @ bevan's capabilities in the longer version being hyped so much ! He was a gem in ODIs, one of the top 3 IMO ( with Sachin and Viv ) but husseyesque periods in tests, really !?
 

Mike5181

International Captain
To be fair he dominated the Australian first class scene and some of those teams probably could have rolled a few of the international teams with all the talent they had running around.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
husseyesque periods in tests, really !?
The irony of the term is he was a better batsman than Hussey in domestic cricket. If Hussey could have gone on like he did I think Bevan was even more suited to.


To be fair he dominated the Australian first class scene and some of those teams probably could have rolled a few of the international teams with all the talent they had running around.
This.
 
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Jono

Virat Kohli (c)
There's a difference between saying he could be like Hussey and saying he could be like Ponting. Such a massive difference.

One is saying the guy can have an amazing at home over a couple of years, the other is saying he'd be an all-time great batsman scoring 10,000+ test runs over a period of 10-12 years.
 

abmk

State 12th Man
The irony of the term is he was a better batsman than Hussey in domestic cricket. If Hussey could have gone on like he did I think Bevan was even more suited to.
LOL, yeah, because there are plenty of batsmen who've gone on hussey-esque runs !!!! Look there are plenty of batsmen MUCH MUCH better than Bevan who haven't gone on hussey-esque runs .....
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
There's a difference between saying he could be like Hussey and saying he could be like Ponting. Such a massive difference.

One is saying the guy can have an amazing at home over a couple of years, the other is saying he'd be an all-time great batsman scoring 10,000+ test runs over a period of 10-12 years.
Is that what his problem was with my opinion? He said he disagreed with my view that he'd have husseyesque periods he didn't say anything about being compared to Ponting. The two aren't the same as one can have fantastic periods and yet lack the consistency to be as good as Ponting - like Hussey.

I am well aware that saying he would be one of the best ever is a long bow to draw; I mentioned as such. My part on him having husseyesque periods is not even so much that he'd have scored so much in a short amount of time; but that he'd be incredibly hard to get out once he got going. Bevan had that aura of impenetrability at times, much like Hussey when he began. When they're like that you may as well tattoo "N.O." on their foreheads.

I just think Bevan was better than Hussey so I don't think it outside the realms of possibility for him to have done as well as Huss, even if he never got to Ponting's level.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
LOL, yeah, because there are plenty of batsmen who've gone on hussey-esque runs !!!! Look there are plenty of batsmen MUCH MUCH better than Bevan who haven't gone on hussey-esque runs .....
In the 00s there were a number of batsmen that were averaging 70-80 runs for a couple years, I am pretty sure. Without stat-checking, I think the likes of Chanderpaul, Sangakkara, Jayawardene, Tendulkar, Ponting, Kallis, Yousuf achieved that.

Hussey just managed it in the beginning of his career. Anyway, hussey-esque runs is different to what I meant.
 
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abmk

State 12th Man
To be fair he dominated the Australian first class scene and some of those teams probably could have rolled a few of the international teams with all the talent they had running around.
I think Aus domestic was pretty good, but it tends to get over-rated at times. Besides, there's always this transition from domestic to international cricket ( in the longer version ) , which isn't that easy and at times difficulty gets under-estimated
 

abmk

State 12th Man
. My part on him having husseyesque periods is not even so much that he'd have scored so much in a short amount of time; but that he'd be incredibly hard to get out once he got going. Bevan had that aura of impenetrability at times, much like Hussey when he began. When they're like that you may as well tattoo "N.O." on their foreheads.
yeah, that really showed up in his test average of 29 ...hussey in his slump period managed an average of 6 points over that

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

. I just think Bevan was better than Hussey so I don't think it outside the realms of possibility for him to have done as well as Huss, even if he never got to Ponting's level.
you must be on of the very few to think bevan would be superior to hussey in the longer format if given chances
 

Top_Cat

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Think a lot of why Bev is rated so highly in OZ circles dates back to when he was at the academy. Was basically earmarked as a 20-Test-ton player even then. When he scored a ton in his first FC game aged 19 on a nightmare deck against a good WA attack, was just a confirmation of what everyone 'already knew'. Was rated at least as highly as Lehmann and Ponting but they were definitely in a class of their own as being the next great Aussie Test batters, guys like Law/Hodge/Love in the next tier.

The signs were there, though, of a big problem. Bevvo was and is an intense bloke, 'Bev attacks' were legendary at Adelaide Oval. Still talked about (although that's probably more a function of how old and crusty the SACA types are rather than how awesome they were). The short ball wasn't a problem for him but the more people talked about it, the more he churned about it, impacted in his decision-making as a batter and made into a problem.

In OD's, you have a set number of overs to work with so can set yourself short-term goals easier. An analytical brain like Bevan's can work with that. Can cause a problems when you have all the overs in the world to work with as in Tests plus all the attendant pressures of being a Test player. Re: Ponting, one his biggest strengths as a batter is his ability to not look too far ahead and forget quickly what just happened whereas all of what came before and what was 10 overs ahead piled on a bloke like Bevan. So, like I said, guys would stay on his legs (where he was relatively weak) and cut off scoring options, let him do all the psych work for them and then give him some width. Phil Hughes is going through the same thing right now, I reckon.

The irony of bringing up Hussey is that his batting went the opposite way; started off as a bloke with two shots but an impregnable defence and averaged mid-30's for WA for a decade, turned into a Bevan-esque player when they started batting him at 6/7 in OD's for WA (more calculating) and suddenly was in contention for a Test spot. Weird how blokes can develop because at the academy was renowned as a bloke who you couldn't get out but he wouldn't score many either (from memory, reckon Rod Marsh rubbished his lack of shots publicly when he was still there). Interestingly, one of the big criticisms of him was that he couldn't drive through cover and now it's his best shot.
 
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benchmark00

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Think a lot of why Bev is rated so highly in OZ circles dates back to when he was at the academy. Was basically earmarked as a 20-Test-ton player even then. When he scored a ton in his first FC game aged 19 on a nightmare deck against a good WA attack, was just a confirmation of what everyone 'already knew'. Was rated at least as highly as Lehmann and Ponting but they were definitely in a class of their own as being the next great Aussie Test batters, guys like Law/Hodge/Love in the next tier.

The signs were there, though, of a big problem. Bevvo was and is an intense bloke, 'Bev attacks' were legendary at Adelaide Oval. Still talked about (although that's probably more a function of how old and crusty the SACA types are rather than how awesome they were). The short ball wasn't a problem for him but the more people talked about it, the more he churned about it, impacted in his decision-making as a batter and made into a problem.

In OD's, you have a set number of overs to work with so can set yourself short-term goals easier. An analytical brain like Bevan's can work with that. Can cause a problems when you have all the overs in the world to work with as in Tests plus all the attendant pressures of being a Test player. Re: Ponting, one his biggest strengths as a batter is his ability to not look too far ahead and forget quickly what just happened whereas all of what came before and what was 10 overs ahead piled on a bloke like Bevan. So, like I said, guys would stay on his legs (where he was relatively weak) and cut off scoring options, let him do all the psych work for them and then give him some width.

The irony of bringing up Hussey is that his batting went the opposite way; started off as a bloke with two shots but an impregnable defence and averaged mid-30's for WA for a decade, turned into a Bevan-esque player when they started batting him at 6/7 in OD's for WA (more calculating) and suddenly was in contention for a Test spot. Weird how blokes can develop because at the academy was renowned as a bloke who you couldn't get out but he wouldn't score many either. Interestingly, one of the big criticisms of him was that he couldn't drive through cover and now it's his best shot.
Yes.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
:laugh: test average. We know Bevan didn't have a good Test career. That is kind of the point of the discussion we're having.

you must be on of the very few to think bevan would be superior to hussey in the longer format if given chances
No, not if you regard their domestic performances. From what I recall Bevan was always rated higher up till the point he was still a viable option.

---

In all honesty, none of this deserves a lengthy conversation. Bevan didn't perform in the chances he got and his Test career ended how it ended. It is conjecture to say he would have been much better, let alone amongst the best - there is no denying that. It still doesn't change my belief that in my opinion had he gotten over that hump he could have been so much better.

EDIT/ADD: quality post TC.
 
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Son Of Coco

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
The irony of the term is he was a better batsman than Hussey in domestic cricket. If Hussey could have gone on like he did I think Bevan was even more suited to.
The problem with this is that success in FC doesn't always = success in test cricket. Just because Hussey did what he did for a while doesn't mean Bevan would. Hussey was seemingly stronger mentally than Bevan when he came onto the test scene, with no obvious problems.

If given a chance when he'd apparently fixed his flaws then maybe. But as TC said, by then he wasn't getting a look in with the players they had in the team.
 

Borges

International Regular
Think a lot of why Bev is rated so highly in OZ circles dates back to when he was at the academy. ...
Thanks for that post. Cleared up a lot of things for me.

As an aside, could we have a thread on promising young Australian players who are being talked about now at the academy, and who have just started their FC careers. Wouldn't be able to contribute anything to it, but sure would like to hear from those who follow Aussie domestic cricket closely.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
Of course, I agree with you SoC. My comment was that it always filled me with disappointment to never have seen him flourish. Whether in FC or even in ODIs, he looked so damn good at times you just shook your head. I don't think he had a problem with pressure or anything like that (he was fantastic under pressure) but as TC says there is probably something that just didn't click on the international scene. Those things are, however, part and parcel of having success. This discussion revolves around presuming he'd have figured it out and quantifying how successful he could have been. Otherwise, it isn't much of a discussion. As you say, he didn't adjust and Australia had plenty of batsmen waiting.
 

abmk

State 12th Man
Of course, I agree with you SoC. My comment was that it always filled me with disappointment to never have seen him flourish. Whether in FC or even in ODIs, he looked so damn good at times you just shook your head. I don't think he had a problem with pressure or anything like that (he was fantastic under pressure) but as TC says there is probably something that just didn't click on the international scene. Those things are, however, part and parcel of having success. This discussion revolves around presuming he'd have figured it out and quantifying how successful he could have been. Otherwise, it isn't much of a discussion. As you say, he didn't adjust and Australia had plenty of batsmen waiting.
From what I read in interview recently, he said it was mostly mental and not really only the short ball stuff that people mostly keep talking about
 

Top_Cat

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Yeah it's worth a thread on it's own, the variability of successful types. I mean for every Ponting or Sachin who were guns from the get-go, there are blokes like Hayden who was never invited to the academy, was rated as below par even whilst plundering attacks on tough Gabba decks for most of the 90's yet ended up being one of Aus's best ever openers. Conversely, there are guys like Bev and Lehmann who were rated as being in Ponting's league but didn't really go anywhere in Tests or Siddons who didn't get a go at all (ironically, was probably for the same reasons as Bevan, considered weak against the short-ball although there was probably something to it).

What I reckon a lot of people miss in rating players is that blokes have to constantly refine or reinvent their game and sometimes the decisions they make don't pay off. Happens to all players. How (and how quickly) you claw back from a bad season(s) where you tried a slightly different grip or decided to go after balls you'd normally leave is a big test. This is aside from all the other pressures a bat can face. When Lehmann was picked against England in the 90's, he was in ridiculous form for SA but failed in Tests. Word on the street was he was stung by people who thought he didn't play enough shots so started throwing his hands at anything even vaguely outside off-stump. A series of nick outs later and he was out on his arse for being flaky in pressure situations.

Personally, a big correlate of successful players is those who, once they find something that works, either stick with it through good and bad trots and/or listen to what they're own brain is telling them rather than taking the advice of experts holus bolus. Guys who are constantly chasing their tails trying to keep everyone happy ("Bah, he's good but he doesn't have an out-swinger!" "Pshaw, he's accurate but no wrong'un?" "Can't be successful in Tests unless you can hook!") are the ones who struggle when they get found-out and have to change stuff.

Look at a guy like Sachin; Warne was busy decimating everyone who faced him before they played the 1998 series and conventional wisdom suggested once Warne came around the wicket, you'd be best kicking him away because trying to smash them was just too risky. Sachin, formerly an impeccably orthodox player, instead took a leaf out of Cronje's book, trusted his eye, practiced against a leggie before the series (Laxman was it?) and then regularly slammed Warne into the stands around wide mid-on. No-one saw it coming and had people found out beforehand, would have questioned his sanity but in doing that and being smart enough to pick only the balls in exactly the right spot, turned a big money-ball from Warne into a psychological weapon because the rest of his game suffered for a while after that I reckon.
 
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