IPL and Indian cricket's renaissance

[vcs]

KP would definitely make the SA test side even though it probably means he'd be pushed up to open and replace Virus.

Certainly don't see him suited to a Test opening role. At his best, he's an awesome No. 4 who can change the course of games with his strokeplay, but opening in Tests is a different ballgame. I think SA should give Prince more chances in that position, he is a technically and temperamentally solid batsman who plays pace much better than spin. Ticks all the boxes for an opener in SA conditions, but his opening record isn't very good for some reason.

 

[Bun]

An Indian, actually.

He was selected ahead of KP for Natal and the rest, as they say, is history.

What were their respective credentials at that point in time? I have read a bit but nowhere I've come across KP having a flash domestic record in SA. Wasn't he a spinner to start with?

 

[social]

An Indian, actually.

He was selected ahead of KP for Natal and the rest, as they say, is history.

 

[Teja.]

@vcs,

Yeah, All that is well and good but Virus, IMHO, is not a permanent test-class batsman. Whichever way you look at it, KP is a better batsman than Virus and is perceived by most to be better than Prince on his potential to play one of those knocks. Even if the latter is untrue, He still has one open slot in the batting order. Would certainly make the SA XI, for mine.

 

[social]

What were their respective credentials at that point in time? I have read a bit but nowhere I've come across KP having a flash domestic record in SA. Wasn't he a spinner to start with?

Mate, this is the tragedy that is SA cricket

Personally, I cant stand many of them (they have the really annoying habit of being pretty good and telling anyone within earshot that they're better before actually winning anything) but the fact of the matter is that if you put KP, Trott, etc alongside the likes of Kallis, Amla, ABDV, etc, they beat anyone, anytime

 

[Bun]

Mate, this is the tragedy that is SA cricket

Personally, I cant stand many of them (they have the really annoying habit of being pretty good and telling anyone within earshot that they're better before actually winning anything) but the fact of the matter is that if you put KP, Trott, etc alongside the likes of Kallis, Amla, ABDV, etc, they beat anyone, anytime

etc?

Lol, mate I think you're basically saying a KP and a Trott can basically turn around their team from chokers to world beaters, which for me is a step too far to fathom.

Seems like you are circumventing the real issue here, were they good enough to be selected when they defected in the first place?

 

[social]

etc?

Lol, mate I think you're basically saying a KP and a Trott can basically turn around their team from chokers to world beaters, which for me is a step too far to fathom.

Seems like you are circumventing the real issue here, were they good enough to be selected when they defected in the first place?

We're talking about 2 of the best batsmen in the world

It's like asking whether Tendy would improve the Indian team NOW if he'd left a couple of years before making his international debut

Nonsense argument

 

[Bun]

We're talking about 2 of the best batsmen in the world

It's like asking whether Tendy would improve the Indian team NOW if he'd left a couple of years before making his international debut

Nonsense argument

I see you're now talking out of your arse.

I asked you what were their averages/performances when Bodi got selected and Pietersen got dumped. Selectors arent nostradumuses, and players are generally considered pussies if they take the flight after the inital dump.

Tendulkar averaged around 60-70 when making his cut.

 

[BoyBrumby]

etc?

Lol, mate I think you're basically saying a KP and a Trott can basically turn around their team from chokers to world beaters, which for me is a step too far to fathom.

Seems like you are circumventing the real issue here, were they good enough to be selected when they defected in the first place?

Trott's record in SA was decidedly mediocre & Pietersen's was worse.

Although it was better than Bodi's, who he was overlooked for.

 

[social]

I see you're now talking out of your arse.

I asked you what were their averages/performances when Bodi got selected and Pietersen got dumped. Selectors arent nostradumuses, and players are generally considered pussies if they take the flight after the inital dump.

Tendulkar averaged around 60-70 when making his cut.

No idea but he didnt suddenly become a world class talent within 12 months (in his first season in England, he scored 1275 first class runs at 57.95)

 

[Bun]

Trott's record in SA was decidedly mediocre & Pietersen's was worse.

Although it was better than Bodi's, who he was overlooked for.

Thank you. So it is pretty crystal clear KP's record was pretty pathetic when he was discarded.

Although fair to say Bodi's wasn't terrific either. But no way KP's record suggests that he was not considered "only" because of racial quota. Overblown up theory to make KP's ditching romantic.
'

 

[Jacknife]

etc?

Lol, mate I think you're basically saying a KP and a Trott can basically turn around their team from chokers to world beaters, which for me is a step too far to fathom.

Seems like you are circumventing the real issue here, were they good enough to be selected when they defected in the first place?

The simple answer is no,KP especially, left SA, as a mediocre spinner, who could slog a bit down the order. It was his work in CC cricket and advice from a few coaches that persuaded him to concentrate on batting, which if he stopped in SA, would probably never have happened. Trott also turned himself from mediocre batsman to a world class Test No3, that was down to his time in CC.
This sounds like a back handed dig by Social, at England, to even suggest that these 2 would sort out SA problems is LOL, they've got players now who are more than good enough, the thing that has held SA back is not down to talent.

 

[Bun]

No idea but he didnt suddenly become a world class talent within 12 months (in his first season in England, he scored 1275 first class runs at 57.95)

Good on him to turn it around in England, but the SA selectors unless they were gifted with precognition, aren't at fault for discarding a fellow who'd made 249 runs 13 innings across 3 seasons. They surely have discarded many many more since then due to poor performance. How many of them managed to migrate to England and do a KP?

And also to say KP is really a middling force in ODIs. He was brilliant in the first few years agree, but seems to have gone down in the last few years.

 

[Jacknife]

Thank you. So it is pretty crystal clear KP's record was pretty pathetic when he was discarded.

Although fair to say Bodi's wasn't terrific either. But no way KP's record suggests that he was not considered "only" because of racial quota. Overblown up theory to make KP's ditching romantic.
'

I think at the time that's how KP saw it, that less talented players of colour where getting their chances before others. But it's also fair to say moving to England changed KP into a different player altogether, cause and effect, if you will.

 

[social]

The simple answer is no,KP especially, left SA, as a mediocre spinner, who could slog a bit down the order. It was his work in CC cricket and advice from a few coaches that persuaded him to concentrate on batting, which if he stopped in SA, would probably never have happened. Trott also turned himself from mediocre batsman to a world class Test No3, that was down to his time in CC.
This sounds like a back handed dig by Social, at England, to even suggest that these 2 would sort out SA problems is LOL, they've got players now who are more than good enough, the thing that has held SA back is not down to talent.

Nothing to do with England and everything to do with SA

In a perfect world, Trott and KP would be playing for SA - end of

BTW, KP got his county contract by smashing the English tourists around in SA

Having done that, he was promptly dropped

 

[Jacknife]

Nothing to do with England and everything to do with SA

In a perfect world, Trott and KP would be playing for SA - end of

BTW, KP got his county contract by smashing the English tourists around in SA

Having done that, he was promptly dropped

I'm sorry but to suggest that these 2 would make some big difference is a joke, especially when KP has averaged 23 these last 2 years and as far as Trott, SA have got a guy called Kallis batting at 3 followed by de Villiers.
KP got 61 batting down at NO9 which was his highest score at that point, which shows where in the line up he played and where his batting was at. In the same tour game he got 4 wickets coming in as first change bowler, getting Atherton, Hussein and Vaughan.

 

[social]

I'm sorry but to suggest that these 2 would make some big difference is a joke, especially when KP has averaged 23 these last 2 years and as far as Trott, SA have got a guy called Kallis batting at 3 followed by de Villiers.
KP got 61 batting down at NO9 which was his highest score at that point, which shows where in the line up he played and where his batting was at. In the same tour game he got 4 wickets coming in as first change bowler, getting Atherton, Hussein and Vaughan.

So he got 60 not out, 4 wickets, and was dropped by Natal but received a county contract from Notts on the base of that performance and immediately repaid that faith with 1300 runs in the first season

Jeez, I have no ****ing idea why he left

 

[ankitj]

I trace the emergence of the new mentally strong India to their chase of 387 against England in Chennai. Never underestimate the psychological boost of a good chase. Said at the time that it would take Indian cricket to the next level, like Australia's win against Pakistan in Hobart '99 did for them.

I trace it to a good 6-7 years earlier. Chasing 325 something in Natwest series final in 2002.

EDIT: To be fair though, all teams have made chasing look easier as the game has evolved, which I will not squarely put down to poor pitches.

 

[Jacknife]

So he got 60 not out, 4 wickets, and was dropped by Natal but received a county contract from Notts on the base of that performance and immediately repaid that faith with 1300 runs in the first season

Jeez, I have no ****ing idea why he left

I agree, in as far as KP thought he was not getting a fair shot, but apart from this one off game, against a tourist side he did virtually nothing for 3 seasons. He then came over to CC and Notts and they persuaded him he could become a middle order batsman. But it still stands, that having KP in a SA side, would suddenly make them much better, is way off the mark, especially taking into consideration, he has had a couple of really poor years in 50 over cricket.

 

[pup11]

IPL has been lambasted generally in all forums (except for really hardcore fan forums), and perhaps there is a reason for the same.

But if one takes notice of the Indian team in the last 3 years, from 2008 onwards, they've been on a meteoric rise, in both ODIs and tests, a rise which has culminated in them winning the WC, no.1 in both tests and ODIs.

Is it just coincidental that this has spanned exactly the same age as that of the IPL? People have been talking how IPL is detrimental to other formats, particularly tests, but records of the Indian team suggest otherwise.

Thoughts?

IPL for me has absolutely nothing to do with India's performances over the last few years, the only reason why they are doing so well is that they have some awesome world-class batsmen who amazingly have all peaked at the same time.


Then they are led by a bloke like Dhoni who has been able to extract the most out of his limited bowling resources and as a result they have emerged as a very strong over-all unit

IPL if anything is likely to hurt India in the longer run because down the line a young Indian player might not have the same drive that he had before due to all these IPL riches at his disposal, and maybe likes of Rohit Sharma, Ishant Sharma are somewhat examples of this new breed of young Indian cricketers.