What is the most important criterion for someone to be classified as an ATG?

[GotSpin]

I dunno about that. If a bowler has any aura, it could translate to things like wickets being taken at crucial times (something not represented by stats). It could also improve the performance of other bowlers/team mates (because the batsman might be unsettled by the previous spell, even if it didn't take a wicket).

These are all speculative of course, but I'm sure there are others benefits someone with an aura has which don't necessarily result in a boost to their own stats.

Think Flintoff was one of those guys that had an aura but one with which the stats do not reflect.

 

[bagapath]

It defies logic to expect a batsmen to score as many runs when his team loses as when they win.

He won't. So don't take it literally. Am trying to say that sachin's 136 against pak in "99 is as important a knock as ponting's 156 in '05 and lara's 153*

For sure lara's knock is the best coz australia won on that day. But all three qualify as all time great knocks. the results of the respective games cannot take away the quality of batsmanship on display in these different circumstances.

An ATG, I believe, over his career would have done well in all sorts of finishes. Lara scored just 6 hundreds in wins; Border, only 5. But they are shoe ins, aren't they?

 

[Ruckus]

Think Flintoff was one of those guys that had an aura but one with which the stats do not reflect.

Yeh thats a great example actually, I recall his team mates often saying how his mere presence really lifted everyones performance.

 

[GotSpin]

Also, although his stats actually do reflect it, I really do think Senior Waugh had that aura as well - Especially in the latter of his career. Everyone knew that at 3/30 you wanted Steve to be there.

 

[Ruckus]

Also, although his stats actually do reflect it, I really do think Senior Waugh had that aura as well - Especially in the latter of his career. Everyone knew that at 3/30 you wanted Steve to be there.

Well perhaps not. If you have a penchant for scoring under pressure like the iceman, that wouldn't necessarily result in better stats either (only more wins for your team). Laxman is another example which comes to mind. For the Australians, I definately think Laxman would have an aura.

 

[GotSpin]

Well perhaps not. If you have a penchant for scoring under pressure like the iceman, that wouldn't necessarily result in better stats either (only more wins for your team). Laxman is another example which comes to mind. For the Australians, I definately think Laxman would have an aura.

What I meant to say - Waugh already has very good stats but they are accompanied by an aura too unlike Flintoff

 

[Maximus0723]

I agree, Steve Waugh had an aura. That aura was more apparent when Aussie's were under pressure.

 

[Uppercut]

He won't. So don't take it literally. Am trying to say that sachin's 136 against pak in "99 is as important a knock as ponting's 156 in '05 and lara's 153*

Surely it isn't. 153 runs is more runs than 136. And as a direct result of those few extra runs, Lara got the job done and Tendulkar didn't.

I mean, Tendulkar's innings was absolutely great, there's no denying that, but surely you can't put it on a par with an equally epic but also successful innings?

 

[vcs]

Surely it isn't. 153 runs is more runs than 136. And as a direct result of those few extra runs, Lara got the job done and Tendulkar didn't.

I mean, Tendulkar's innings was absolutely great, there's no denying that, but surely you can't put it on a par with an equally epic but also successful innings?

Yeah, I agree. Tendulkar's knock is still definitely one of the best fourth innings knocks of the last couple of decades though.

 

[Teja.]

On a slightly related note, Tendulkar while not being the main man, has contributed significantly in the last three chases.

54/258 with Laxman scoring 103* in Colombo
38/216 with Laxman scoring 73* in Mohali
53/207 with Pujara scoring 72 in Bangalore

That along with scoring 41, 98 and 214 in the first Innings' of those tests. WAFG.

 

[vcs]

On a slightly related note, Tendulkar while not being the main man, has contributed significantly in the last three chases.

54/258 with Laxman scoring 103* in Colombo
38/216 with Laxman scoring 73* in Mohali
53/207 with Pujara scoring 72 in Bangalore

That along with scoring 41, 98 and 214 in the first Innings' of those tests. WAFG.

Tendulkar has generally always stepped up under pressure with a couple of exceptions (Sydney 2008 and SL 2008) since we beat Pakistan in Delhi in 2007. Tendulkar made an unbeaten 50-odd in that chase. Another underrated but important effort was when Tendulkar and Laxman batted out a draw on the 5th day in Bangalore in 2008.

In 2004-07, there were a lot of occasions, when we needed a vital contribution from him, but he did not step up.

 

[Jono]

**** we've batted 4th innings so much in the last three years.

Yeah that chase against Pakistan in 2007 was important. Shoaib was running through everyone.

 

[Uppercut]

Yeah, I agree. Tendulkar's knock is still definitely one of the best fourth innings knocks of the last couple of decades though.

Totally. Absolutely epic knock.

 

[smash84]

Yeah, I agree. Tendulkar's knock is still definitely one of the best fourth innings knocks of the last couple of decades though.

Right up there with the best 4th innings knocks that one. Me (And almost the whole of Pakistan) was thinking that the only thing between Pakistan and victory was Sachin And the situation was looked so good when he was standing there.

With Wasim, Waqar, and Shoaib with an old ball Pak had the firepower to clean the tail in less than 10 runs. And that was what happened. Sachin went and so did the tail.

But an absolute gem of a knock. And you have to remember that he had severe back pain too.

 

[vcs]

Right up there with the best 4th innings knocks that one. Me (And almost the whole of Pakistan) was thinking that the only thing between Pakistan and victory was Sachin And the situation was looked so good when he was standing there.

With Wasim, Waqar, and Shoaib with an old ball Pak had the firepower to clean the tail in less than 10 runs. And that was what happened. Sachin went and so did the tail.

But an absolute gem of a knock. And you have to remember that he had severe back pain too.

I did not have access to TV at that time and was hearing it on radio with a friend in my hostel. Was heartbreaking.

 

[The Sean]

With your criteria of 50+ tests and 5000+ runs, Sutcliffe ranks second only to Bradman in terms of career average -- seems like a shoe in to me.

sutcliffe hasn't scored any doubles.

Nor has he scored more than 5,000 Test runs.

Though that brings us nicely around to the man who actually does have the second highest Test average of those who have scored more than 5,000 runs, and he's even more under-appreciated than Sutcliffe...

...step forward Ken Barrington.

 

[Maximus0723]

Didn't similar things happen in test when Clarke took 3 wickets in last over.

Can someone put up that test if they don't mind?

nvm, got it.

 

[Slifer]

mcgrath is a considerably superior bowler to waqar. take out the minnows waqar's average goes above 25. his great SR is compensated by his bad ER and makes him a very good bowler - and not an all time great. mcgrath on the other hand is a perfect pace bowler. still.... majority believe lillee is a superior bowler to mcgrath - despite mcgrath's better record in every aspect. lillee's charisma, i am sure, swings it in his favor every time an all-time XI is selected; the recent cricinfo team is an example.

and, most importantly, remember your greatest cricketer, sir RJH? he never gets selected in these teams ever. his clinical bowling made him a terror all around the globe for a whole decade. and he could hold a bat, too. but when it comes to these ATG rankings, similar/lesser champions with more mercurial personalities, like marshall, ambrose and lillee get picked above him a lot of times.

Excuse me but on stats alone MM has just as much right as ne bowler being in ne AT eleven.

 

[bagapath]

Surely it isn't. 153 runs is more runs than 136. And as a direct result of those few extra runs, Lara got the job done and Tendulkar didn't.

I mean, Tendulkar's innings was absolutely great, there's no denying that, but surely you can't put it on a par with an equally epic but also successful innings?

I did say lara's innings was the best of the lot. but my point is, these three knocks are probably the best knocks ever by these respective batsmen. one resulted in a win, another one in a draw and the third one in a defeat. but they all mean the same in the context of these three batters being ATGs. Scoring more than anyone else on the last day wicket against such very good bowling attacks keeping the hopes of their teams alive is a trait only champions are blessed with. the results dont change the quality of the knocks. like i said, lara scored 6 hundreds in victories and border 5. if they are not ATGs because most of their centuries came in defeats and draws, then no one is an ATG.

 

[Maximus0723]

How about ability and willingness to improve play of ones around you.

Such things are more focused on, in American sports. That's where I got this idea.