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Your All-time Top 5's

Lillian Thomson

Hall of Fame Member
ROFL, Hussain and Atherton better than Hayden. That's one of the funniest things I've ever read..
:laugh: Stick around.

Just for the record the theory about Hayden has nothing specifically to do with Atherton or Hussain. Richard's contendment is that prior to 2001 Hayden wouldn't have been a Test class batsman. Therefore ANY batsman he considers to be Test class is logically automatically superior to Hayden. The level of sanity used in coming to that conclusion is open to debate, but it's wrong to constantly get bogged down quoting Nasser Hussain.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
ROFL, Hussain and Atherton better than Hayden. That's one of the funniest things I've ever read. Hayden was a class batsman, averaged 58 almost 59 in Test cricket when on form, and that came after 51 Tests. He also was once rated the best batsman in the world in the ICC Rankings. He's played some seriously class innings, and scored hundreds in very tough conditions. Here are a few examples:

Hundred in a match where Pakistan were bowled out for under 60 twice, with Hayden being the only batsman to make it past 50

Hundred at Johannesburg against Donald, Ntini, Kallis and Nel where South Africa were bowled out twice for around 150 twice

Hundred in Mumbai in the 2nd innings of the match after India were bowled out for 176 and then 219 in the 2nd innings

Hundred at Galle in Australia's 2nd innings against Murali and Vaas, on a wicket where Sri Lanka were later bowled out for 154

Double hundred at Chennai as Australia were bowled out for 390, one of only 2 batsmen to make hundreds in the match

There are a few innings on wickets that clearly weren't batting paradises against some very competent bowlers. Then you've also got his domination in the 2007 World Cup, where he made 659 runs in 11 games, with 3 hundreds, an average of 73.22 and a strike rate of over 100. But I'm sure all the pitches were featherbeds and none of the bowlers any good........
I'm well aware of all of that, and believe it or not not one thing counters the assertion that Hayden could not counter good-quality seam bowling. Hayden was an excellent player of spin and an outstanding one of poor-quality bowling of any kind. But he was inadaquete against good-quality seam.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
I won't rehash the rest of that garbage argument but I will address this.

The bowling of the time did not drop in quality, nor did the pitches allow, that someone who averages in the 20s or 30s to suddenly became an all-time great opener. This is irrefutable. It's only conceivable with your warped bias.

Someone who fails to acknowledge Hayden's poor form pre-Ashes, or is a stickler for his first handful of tests, or goes as far as creating a date to judge Hayden to disadvantage him...or even rate him lower than the likes of Atherton and Hussain...simply has issues.
Nope, wrong. On every single count. As I've said, you really don't have a clue of anything about me so your comments directed at my character ("... warped bias..."; "...has issues...") amount to little more than spamming the forum. And yes, you've been warned to stop making them a good few times.

Batting did get much easier in 2001/02, that had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Hayden, and Hayden played more than "a handful" of Tests prior to 2001/02. Those are all facts of the matter. As is the fact that it is perfectly possible for a batsman to go from averaging very low against a certain type of bowling to very high against another. I would provide you with a few examples (mostly relating to seam\spin weakness\strengths) but it'd be a waste of my time.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Hayden was completely out of nick before the 2005 Ashes series, so I guess that excuses him for being mediocre during the majority of that series, right? There if a difference in difficulty when facing a quality attack when you are unproven compared to when you are established.
No, Hayden wasn't out-of-nick in 2004/05 and 2005. He was simply worked-out by Kyle Mills, Shoaib Akhtar and Matthew Hoggard.
So you are trying to undermine the conditions of someone who actually played in that match?
The conditions of someone who played in the match? I don't need to undermine Stephen Waugh - he was very poor in 2001/02. Simple as.
Been noted before now how an isolated :laugh: in response to something that isn't a joke is generally an indicator of a poor-quality poster.
Many batsman that have faced him would beg to differ. Much like many bowlers would beg to differ on your views of Matthew Hayden.
Many poor-quality bowlers, yeah. Ntini isn't hopeless, but he's only ever offered glimpses of being Test-class.
Scored 2 hundreds against Hoggard between the times that you mentioned. One at the Oval and in Melbourne, when Australia were on the ropes at 5/80. Not only that, but he also carried Symonds during that innings aswell. Under 1000 runs were scored in the match, in overcast bowler-friendly conditions.
And you know what? Yes, as I already mentioned, Hoggard dismissed him lbw twice before he'd made 13. Hayden only once scored runs against a Hoggard-containing attack, that being The Oval 2005.
Hayden eventually got the laugh last on him.
Not really, all the England bowlers still had the wood on Hayden in 2006/07.
That's wrong. Pollock didn't start to deteriorate until 2003. Pollock averaged 20 during the time he bowled to Hayden and maintained that same average up until the start of 2004.
Pollock ceased to be capable of taking wickets on flat pitches in 2001/02. That should've been fairly obvious to anyone who watched his career. Evidently, you didn't.
Really, he was no different in those periods to 2002 when Hayden got the better of him. Hayden just made him look worse then what he actually was.
Caddick was considerably different between July 1999 and May 2001 to any other time in his career. He bowled inestimably better in that period to any time before or after. Again, you clearly weren't watching him closely enough - if at all. I somewhat doubt you even tried to watch close to all of England's Tests with Caddick playing.
Poor excuse. Vaas is class and Hayden murdered him, just admit it.
Vaas is class, but only tends to demonstrate that about 50% of the time he steps onto the park. He happens to be just about my favourite bowler ever, but he's capable of, and does about half the time, bowling execrably badly. The other half the time, he tends to bowl about as well as anyone ever will.
He dismissed Hayden once, in 7 Tests.
Hayden played 4 Tests against Donald in that period, scoring 84 runs in 8 innings'. Donald dismissed him just the first of these 8, true, but he was conclusively conquered by South Africa's attack.
Are you kidding? Did you not see Sharma bowl in Australia? Hayden was all him over.
All him over? I did indeed see Sharma bowl in Australia, and he clearly shouldn't have been playing.
Funny how you fail to mention Hayden's efforts at Shoaib during 2002, when Shoaib was at his absolute peak. I think that facing someone with their tail up and swinging the ball at 155kph would be more difficult then anything else. Or Hayden's success against the ICC World XI, when he got man of the match, facing the best bowlers in the world at that particular time?
The World XI match was a joke game, I couldn't care less about it. If you missed it, Shoaib bowled well just once against Australia in 2002/03, in which Hayden made 4 and 34. In the other 2 games, he could not cope with the 50degC heat (not surprisingly, it was ridicuous they were playing in it) and barely bowled.
 

King Pietersen

International Captain
I'm well aware of all of that, and believe it or not not one thing counters the assertion that Hayden could not counter good-quality seam bowling. Hayden was an excellent player of spin and an outstanding one of poor-quality bowling of any kind. But he was inadaquete against good-quality seam.
Shoaib Akhtar and Waqar Younis at Sharjah in 2002- they not any good?
Caddick, Hoggard and Jones at Brisbane in 2002- they not any good?
Pollock, Donald and Kallis at Melbourne in 2001- they not any good?
Harmison, Hoggard and Flintoff at the Oval in 2005- they not any good?
Vaas and Malinga at Cairns in 2004- they not any good?
Walsh and Bishop at Adelaide in 1997- they not any good?
Zaheer Khan at Melbourne in 2007- he not any good?
Harmison, Flintoff and Kallis at Sydney in 2005- they not any good?
Sharma and Pathan at Adelaide in 2008- they not any good?
Pollock, Ntini, Nel and Kallis at Durban in 2006- they not any good?


If you believe none of those bowlers mentioned above are any good, then you've got an incredibly warped opinion of what makes a decent bowler. Hayden made hundreds against all of those bowlers, and if guys like Donald, Pollock, Waqar Younis, Akhtar, Hoggard, Zaheer, Sharma, Ntini, Caddick, Jones, Vaas, Walsh, Bishop, Flintoff and Harmison and the others aren't good Test bowlers, then I don't know what makes a good Test bowler.
 

Uppercut

Request Your Custom Title Now!
If you believe none of those bowlers mentioned above are any good, then you've got an incredibly warped opinion of what makes a decent bowler. Hayden made hundreds against all of those bowlers, and if guys like Donald, Pollock, Waqar Younis, Akhtar, Hoggard, Zaheer, Sharma, Ntini, Caddick, Jones, Vaas, Walsh, Bishop, Flintoff and Harmison and the others aren't good Test bowlers, then I don't know what makes a good Test bowler.
:laugh:

Just write it off as one of Richard's crackpot theories and move on.
 

King Pietersen

International Captain
Harmison was a good Test bowler in 2004/2005. He was picked in the World XI in 2005, and took 17 wickets in that 2005 Ashes series, he may be a slightly laughable character now (although I believe he's still got it in him, in England anyway), but in 2005 he was genuinely quick, and a serious wicket-taker.
 

wfdu_ben91

International 12th Man
No, Hayden wasn't out-of-nick in 2004/05 and 2005. He was simply worked-out by Kyle Mills, Shoaib Akhtar and Matthew Hoggard.
Rubbish. When a batsman dominates for 3-4 years straight without having 1 bleak patch, they're going to eventually going to experience a period of lapse, unless you're Sir Donald Bradman. It's part of the rigours of International cricket.

Richard said:
The conditions of someone who played in the match? I don't need to undermine Stephen Waugh - he was very poor in 2001/02. Simple as.
When you've got well over 120 Test caps to your name, I think you'd be able to assess the conditions regardless of what form you were in.

Richard said:
Been noted before now how an isolated :laugh: in response to something that isn't a joke is generally an indicator of a poor-quality poster.
Nope, it's more of an indication of what a garbage was posted before it.

Richard said:
Many poor-quality bowlers, yeah. Ntini isn't hopeless, but he's only ever offered glimpses of being Test-class.
Averaged under 30 after 2001/02, when you claim it became signifcantly easier for batsman. By your logic, Ntini is one of the best bowlers of all-time.

Richard said:
And you know what? Yes, as I already mentioned, Hoggard dismissed him lbw twice before he'd made 13. Hayden only once scored runs against a Hoggard-containing attack, that being The Oval 2005.
Bad decisions even themselves out. Hayden had several poor umpiring decisions go against him this summer which later resulted in his exit from the game.

Richard said:
Not really, all the England bowlers still had the wood on Hayden in 2006/07.
And that's why he scored a 100 in the Test that featured the least amount of runs out of that entire series.

Richard said:
Pollock ceased to be capable of taking wickets on flat pitches in 2001/02. That should've been fairly obvious to anyone who watched his career. Evidently, you didn't.
If he ceased his ability to take wickets on flat pitches then why did he maintain the exact same average from 2001 to 2003?

Richard said:
Caddick was considerably different between July 1999 and May 2001 to any other time in his career. He bowled inestimably better in that period to any time before or after. Again, you clearly weren't watching him closely enough - if at all. I somewhat doubt you even tried to watch close to all of England's Tests with Caddick playing.
Nope, that's just another excuse to downplay Hayden's acchievements.

Richard said:
Vaas is class, but only tends to demonstrate that about 50% of the time he steps onto the park. He happens to be just about my favourite bowler ever, but he's capable of, and does about half the time, bowling execrably badly. The other half the time, he tends to bowl about as well as anyone ever will.
Well, you'd imagine that he'd lift his game against the team that has dominated world cricket for the past 15 years.

Richard said:
Hayden played 4 Tests against Donald in that period, scoring 84 runs in 8 innings'. Donald dismissed him just the first of these 8, true, but he was conclusively conquered by South Africa's attack.
Okay, he did have it over Hayden there but to say that he was significantly weaker in 2001/02 is a joke. You just don't lose it within' the snap of someones fingers. If you told Donald that Hayden's acchievements against him were flawed because he was a useless old hack during the 2001/02 series then he'd most likely slap you.

Richard said:
All him over? I did indeed see Sharma bowl in Australia, and he clearly shouldn't have been playing.
I think all that watched that series would firmly disagree with you.

Richard said:
The World XI match was a joke game, I couldn't care less about it. If you missed it, Shoaib bowled well just once against Australia in 2002/03, in which Hayden made 4 and 34. In the other 2 games, he could not cope with the 50degC heat (not surprisingly, it was ridicuous they were playing in it) and barely bowled.
Haha, a joke? That's why they all came out before the match and said they wanted to belt Australia to benefit their own home countries. It's easy to say you didn't try after you destroyed though, aye?
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
It's funny how there are like 101 little excuses Richard has for each point to denigrate Hayden.

"Between 01-02 x bowler was crap or between 02-03, y bowler was crap for 2-3 tests, then good, then crap again, and Hayden played him when he was crap. z bowler was at the end of his career, it doesn't matter that he was still bowling good...don't you know that...anyone who knows cricket knows that...I don't care if Hayden averaged 100 because in the 3 tests in the 90s he failed!"
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
You 'eard.
Well let me remind you, when Hayden made runs againts SA in the 6 test of 2005/06. Ntini was at the peak of his career.

I can, will and it's not remotely close to the entire CW community - half, at best, have ever continued to argue against the idea.
Because EVERYBODY knows its garbage. You using it to base your arguments just devalues your point.

Its like the republicans in the USA comparing Obama to Lennin & Stalin. Its that dumb.

We both you bring that idea to Ian Chappell, Benaud, Cozier, Mark Taylor or any of the brilliant cricinfo writers they would chase you..


Caddick's good period actually ended the Test before the 2001 Ashes. Anyone who watched him bowl in the Second Test at Pakistan (a game I believe I've heard you make mention of being present at) could tell he was not the same bowler he had been for the last 2 years. And he never again got that back either.
Yea i was at the game. But it would be be unfair hindsight on mine & your part so say he wasn't himself coming off those successful 4 series. Since going into the first Ashes test everyone was still talking up how Gough/Caddick would do againts the aussies batsmen.

I don't know whether it does or doesn't - I've seen just 2 of Vaas' Tests against Australia. In those 2, he was encapsulated perfectly - absolutely brilliant in the 1st, hopeless in the 2nd.
Well off my head i know Vaas bowled to Hayden in 5 test in 2004. Hayden played him well, especially in SRI where the entire Australian team stepped up in every department to win their toughest series during the great era IMO.
 

0RI0N

State 12th Man
Well let me remind you, when Hayden made runs againts SA in the 6 test of 2005/06. Ntini was at the peak of his career.



Because EVERYBODY knows its garbage. You using it to base your arguments just devalues your point.

Its like the republicans in the USA comparing Obama to Lennin & Stalin. Its that dumb.

We both you bring that idea to Ian Chappell, Benaud, Cozier, Mark Taylor or any of the brilliant cricinfo writers they would chase you..




Yea i was at the game. But it would be be unfair hindsight on mine & your part so say he wasn't himself coming off those successful 4 series. Since going into the first Ashes test everyone was still talking up how Gough/Caddick would do againts the aussies batsmen.



Well off my head i know Vaas bowled to Hayden in 5 test in 2004. Hayden played him well, especially in SRI where the entire Australian team stepped up in every department to win their toughest series during the great era IMO.
/
That was a massive series win.
Didn't 0z concede a 150 run lead to SL,and then Hayden scored runs and Martyn iirc?
But surely India '04'05 series was a the best.'The final frontier',as SR WAUGH put it .Oz winning 2 of 3 tests before the Indians prepared a super difficult pitch in Mumbai to sneak a consolation.
 

Debris

International 12th Man
Why Bannerman? What did he do after his debut hundred ?
Considering he only played 3 tests, one hundred is pretty good. He was the premier batsman of the day, I reckon. And no Australian has bettered it on debut since. Possibly the longest-standing record in test cricket.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
Considering he only played 3 tests, one hundred is pretty good. He was the premier batsman of the day, I reckon. And no Australian has bettered it on debut since. Possibly the longest-standing record in test cricket.
Then why not Barry Richards who scored 2 hundreds and 2 fifties in just four Tests averaging 72.6.

OR Andrew Ganteaume who scored a hundred in a solitary innings in Tests averaging above Bradman. :)

OR Charles Mariott who
  • took a five-for in every Test innings he played and
  • a ten for in every Test.
  • The only bowler ever to perform the feat

OR SF Barnes who

  • Took 49 wickets in a Test series. He would have been closer to 60 if he had played all five Tests of the series !! No one comes close even in a six Test series.
  • He took 189 wickets in mere 27 Tests. Here is how long it took some of the players you are more familiar with to reach that mark

  • Murali : 42
  • Warne : 41
  • McGrath : 43
  • Marshall : 41
  • Imran : 43

I could go on and on :)
 
Last edited:

Trumpers_Ghost

U19 Cricketer
Considering he only played 3 tests, one hundred is pretty good. He was the premier batsman of the day, I reckon. And no Australian has bettered it on debut since. Possibly the longest-standing record in test cricket.

Its really hard to tell, but he was probably a hack!

There is no way Bannermann should be mentioned on an alltime best player list, except if the list was compiled straight after the very first test.

Many many batsman have began their test careers (3 tests was it) with more impressive returns...Lawrence Rowe, Mo Azzer, f**k even Micheal Clarke.

As silly as it is to have a club cricketer like WG Grace on these lists, Bannerman is just going to the ridiculas
 

archie mac

International Coach
Its really hard to tell, but he was probably a hack!

There is no way Bannermann should be mentioned on an alltime best player list, except if the list was compiled straight after the very first test.

Many many batsman have began their test careers (3 tests was it) with more impressive returns...Lawrence Rowe, Mo Azzer, f**k even Micheal Clarke.

As silly as it is to have a club cricketer like WG Grace on these lists, Bannerman is just going to the ridiculas
If I was a mod. I would ban you for saying that:@

Bannermann was clearly the best batsman in Aust. at the time, and also on the tour of England in 1878, and all who watched him were of that opinion
 

Evilhoopler

U19 12th Man
Top 5 Opening Batsman

1. Matthew Hayden
2. Sunil Gavasker
3. Sir Jack Hobbs
4. Gordon Greenwich
5. Len Hutton

Top 5 Middle-Order Batsman

1. Sir Donald Bradman
2. Sachin Tendulkar
3. Ricky Ponting
4. Brian Lara
5. Viv Richards

Top 5 Allrounders

1. Garfield Sobers
2. Jaques Kallis
3. Shaun Pollock
4. Ian Botham
5. Kapil Dev

Top 5 Wicketkeeper-Batsman

1. Adam Gilchrist
2. Kumar Sangakarra
3. Andy Flower
4. Brett Oldfield*
5. Les Ames

*I believe the best keeper of all time is Brett Oldfield though he didn't bat greatly. I will put him in there anyway.

Top 5 Spin Bowlers

1. Shane Warne
2. Muttiah Muralitharan
3. Anil Kumble
4. Bishan Bedi
5. Daniel Vettori

Top 5 Pace Bowlers

1. Glenn McGrath
2. Curtley Ambrose
3. Courtney Walsh
4. Fred Spofforth
5. Dale Steyn

Top 5 Cricketers

1. Sir Donald Bradman
2. Shane Warne
3. Garfield Sobers
4. Brian Lara
5. Sachin Tendulkar
 

0RI0N

State 12th Man
Top 5 Opening Batsman

1. Matthew Hayden
2. Sunil Gavasker
3. Sir Jack Hobbs
4. Gordon Greenwich
5. Len Hutton

Top 5 Middle-Order Batsman

1. Sir Donald Bradman
2. Sachin Tendulkar
3. Ricky Ponting
4. Brian Lara
5. Viv Richards

Top 5 Allrounders

1. Garfield Sobers
2. Jaques Kallis
3. Shaun Pollock
4. Ian Botham
5. Kapil Dev

Top 5 Wicketkeeper-Batsman

1. Adam Gilchrist
2. Kumar Sangakarra
3. Andy Flower
4. Brett Oldfield*
5. Les Ames

*I believe the best keeper of all time is Brett Oldfield though he didn't bat greatly. I will put him in there anyway.

Top 5 Spin Bowlers

1. Shane Warne
2. Muttiah Muralitharan
3. Anil Kumble
4. Bishan Bedi
5. Daniel Vettori

Top 5 Pace Bowlers

1. Glenn McGrath
2. Curtley Ambrose
3. Courtney Walsh
4. Fred Spofforth
5. Dale Steyn

Top 5 Cricketers

1. Sir Donald Bradman
2. Shane Warne
3. Garfield Sobers
4. Brian Lara
5. Sachin Tendulkar
/
Who the f = Gordon Greenwich?
~
I am a big fan of Dale,but 5?You reckon Hadlee and Marshall aren't worth much?
Harry Potter at 5(spinners)
Surely not
 

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