Trouble in the English camp : Pietersen Vs Moores!?

[Richard]

Cant think of a player who has taken himself out of contention for the national side due to his disdain for the coach. Warne often expressed his resentment with Buchanan but they were able to work together and Pietersen is but a mirror-image of Warne in many ways.

I suppose. Although I'm not sure Warne and Buchanan did a lot of working together, they were merely able to be in the same team and not cause complete choas.

Warne was a funny one though. Clearly there were a good few Australian team-mates down the years that he simply didn't get on with at all. Yet he was still able to produce the goods. I can't imagine myself being able to do that at all, but maybe some people can do it easier that I can conceive.

 

[ozone]

Warne was a funny one though. Clearly there were a good few Australian team-mates down the years that he simply didn't get on with at all. Yet he was still able to produce the goods. I can't imagine myself being able to do that at all, but maybe some people can do it easier that I can conceive.

As stated before, Warne and Pietersen are incredibly similar as people. I think if anyone in the side would be able to work alongside a coach who they dislike, it would be KP, more so even than Freddie.

 

[Uppercut]

There is a case that maybe Pattinson might be a better bowler than Broad (not enough of one to justify his being picked last summer) but I'd have Broad over both Mahmood and Plunkett any day of any week.

Believe i've mentioned this before, i'll take the erratic but threatening guy over the metronomic harmless one. Broad's had a relatively easy ride so far- five of his ten tests have been against New Zealand- and he still averages a quite shocking 45 with the ball. Never mind, at least he's pushed it below 50. Neither of Mahmood or Plunkett are quite at this level of uselessness.

Broad's an infinitely better ODI bowler though, maybe that's relevant.

 

[Neil Pickup]

Remember the Nielsen thread - about team unity under the identity chosen by the coach or coach/captain axis. If you're not all pulling together then it can't all work - but if players won't pull together, and think they're better than they really are - then what do you do?

 

[Richard]

Believe i've mentioned this before, i'll take the erratic but threatening guy over the metronomic harmless one. Broad's had a relatively easy ride so far- five of his ten tests have been against New Zealand- and he still averages a quite shocking 45 with the ball. Never mind, at least he's pushed it below 50. Neither of Mahmood or Plunkett are quite at this level of uselessness.

Plunkett and Mahmood weren't threatening at all though - they got wickets only through bad batting. Look through Mahmood's figures especially - you'll see how circumstances conspired in his favour, more so even than MSP's.

Had Mahmood and Plunkett been played well, like Broad has, they too would've averaged in the 50s, maybe even the 60s. They truly were diabolical.

 

[Uppercut]

Plunkett and Mahmood weren't threatening at all though - they got wickets only through bad batting. Look through Mahmood's figures especially - you'll see how circumstances conspired in his favour, more so even than MSP's.

Had Mahmood and Plunkett been played well, like Broad has, they too would've averaged in the 50s, maybe even the 60s. They truly were diabolical.

I'd put the fact that batsmen make less big mistakes against Broad than they do against Mahmood or Plunkett down to the significant pace difference tbh.

 

[tooextracool]

Believe i've mentioned this before, i'll take the erratic but threatening guy over the metronomic harmless one. Broad's had a relatively easy ride so far- five of his ten tests have been against New Zealand- and he still averages a quite shocking 45 with the ball. Never mind, at least he's pushed it below 50. Neither of Mahmood or Plunkett are quite at this level of uselessness.

Plunkett was definetly infinitely worse, a case of erratic and unthreatening if there ever was one. Saj actually had something going for him, which is why he took 2 4fers on the international stage and had some excellent A tour performances to back up his selection. Plunkett was really in the side to satisfy Dunc's love affair with bowlers who could get it up at 85+ mph and for his age.

 

[Richard]

I'd put the fact that batsmen make less big mistakes against Broad than they do against Mahmood or Plunkett down to the significant pace difference tbh.

Broad and Plunkett are pretty well the same speed (early-mid-80s; occasionaly late-80s) and Mahmood is only a bit quicker.

Seriously, there's batting error and there's the sort of stuff Mahmood benefited from. Never have I seen such terrible bowling at Test level when not sent down by Eric Upashantha. That his figures were merely poor rather than the diabolical they deserved to be is one of Test cricket's great misnomers.

 

[Richard]

Plunkett was definetly infinitely worse, a case of erratic and unthreatening if there ever was one. Saj actually had something going for him, which is why he took 2 4fers on the international stage and had some excellent A tour performances to back up his selection. Plunkett was really in the side to satisfy Dunc's love affair with bowlers who could get it up at 85+ mph and for his age.

Plunkett also satisfied another of Big Dunc's irritating loves in a bowler - some amount of batting ability.

As for Mahmood's second four-for, though, that came because he was lucky enough to bowl at the Australian tail after (like the rest of the England attack bar Flintoff) bowling utter crap for ages on a helpful deck and allowing Hayden and Symonds to paste it all over the place.

 

[Uppercut]

Plunkett was pretty shocking actually. A prank-bowler if ever there was one. Maybe he was as bad as Broad. Would still have Sajid M*****d over either, but the others' names don't qualify for asterisks because of the chance they might get a bit better.

 

[aussie]

There are a few better candidates. As I stated at the time, the prime reason for KP being given the captaincy was to ensure the Test captain was part of the Stanford Million dollar game and to avoid the awkward situation where the T20 captain gets paid massively more than the Test captain.

Sticking to what I said at the time, Strauss would be a far better candidate as Test captain.

KP doesnt have the needed skills to do the job effectively. From my POV it is almost anyone but KP or Flintoff.

a) They are too important to the team to risk overburdening or having the captaincy effect their game
b) The best captains need to be able to subjugate themselves for the team.
c) Good captains need to be skilled in behind the scenes politics and used to dealing with people ranging from committee men down to players
d) Captains cant afford the buddy approach, which both KP and Flintoff seem to follow.

Solid reasons yes. But to date i don't think reason (a) seems to bother KP nor do it think it will in the future.

Plus outside Vaughan no one in the current set-up has these 4 requirements anyway. So KP pretty much is the best man to lead the side.

 

[FBU]

I can't understand how Mahmood and Plunkett got on to a Lions tour when there have been better bowlers in their own team never mind the rest of the country.

Plunkett 16 wickets at 32.50
Mahmood 35 wickets at 32.77

Thorp 50 at 19.62
Chapple 42 at 20.5

 

[Richard]

Thorp is a Pattinson, TBF. And he's even older than Pattinson as well.

Davies, though, it's absolutely ridiculous that anyone thinks Plunkett is a patch on him. I've said it a good few times - England selectors (though it's not JUST England selectors) sometimes simply don't have a clue how to judge the calibre of a player. Far too much weight is attached to "X could be better than Y if X makes these vast improvements that I think he has it in him to make despite the fact virtually no-one in cricket history has ever made them". When what's needed is to look at the player, look at his figures, and come-up with "Y's way, way better than X right now, which means he probably always will be, and also means that until that changes, X is in the picture and Y is way out of it".

You'd not think it was that difficult. Perhaps a selector thinks his job isn't supposed to be as easy as it actually is, and looks for ways to pretend he's actually got a more difficult task than he has. That and the big-ego "ah but I can see the talent even if it's not reflected in domestic figures" stuff Martin Crowe mentioned.

Cricket selectors are an incompetant bunch, I've said it for quite a few years now.

 

[FBU]

Hussain on SKY sports
Ones to watch out for in 2009

Denly. Foster and

Tim Bresnan/Sajid Mahmood/Liam Plunkett

"There are a few bowlers who are re-emerging onto the scene who I think England will be keeping a close eye on - you are talking about players who have been away and come back so the likes of the Bresnans, the Saj Mahmoods, the Liam Plunketts. I'm sure the England selectors will be keeping an eye on those sorts of bowlers."

Meanwhile in The Guardian

Hugh Morris, the managing director of the England cricket team, will spend the weekend deciding whether to sack the coach, Peter Moores, and is likely to cancel a holiday scheduled for next week if he fails to reach a conclusion.

Morris must choose whether to dismiss Moores amid a serious rift between the coach and Kevin Pietersen, the captain, who feels that Moores is out of his depth and that their relationship is damaged beyond repair.

 

[Langeveldt]

Nice to see England's petulant teenager is busy rocking the boat up there and causing problems.. What do you make of it all?

The thing that strikes me is Pietersen getting his way, simply because he has class and Moores doesn't.. He's a difficult talent, Moores has mediocrity written all over him..

http://content-rsa.cricinfo.com/england/content/current/story/385229.html

 

[zaremba]

Nice to see England's petulant teenager is busy rocking the boat up there and causing problems.. What do you make of it all?

The thing that strikes me is Pietersen getting his way, simply because he has class and Moores doesn't.. He's a difficult talent, Moores has mediocrity written all over him..

http://content-rsa.cricinfo.com/england/content/current/story/385229.html

Moores got the job in the first place not because he has "mediocrity written all over him" but because his achievements in county cricket were nothing short of extraordinary. However that was a case of turning poor players and a poor team into good players and an excellent team. What hadn't been tested prior to his taking the England job was ability to handle "superstar" players with massively inflated egos.

 

[dontcloseyoureyes]

http://forum.cricketweb.net/showthread.php?t=41134

 

[zaremba]

Hussain on SKY sports
Ones to watch out for in 2009

Denly. Foster and

Tim Bresnan/Sajid Mahmood/Liam Plunkett

"There are a few bowlers who are re-emerging onto the scene who I think England will be keeping a close eye on - you are talking about players who have been away and come back so the likes of the Bresnans, the Saj Mahmoods, the Liam Plunketts. I'm sure the England selectors will be keeping an eye on those sorts of bowlers."

Meanwhile in The Guardian

Hugh Morris, the managing director of the England cricket team, will spend the weekend deciding whether to sack the coach, Peter Moores, and is likely to cancel a holiday scheduled for next week if he fails to reach a conclusion.

Morris must choose whether to dismiss Moores amid a serious rift between the coach and Kevin Pietersen, the captain, who feels that Moores is out of his depth and that their relationship is damaged beyond repair.

God, I hope there's not more than one Saj Mahmood or Liam Plunkett. Or, if there are, I hope that the England selectors don't pick the rubbish ones they picked last time.

 

[TT Boy]

‘One of the boys’, Ashley Giles is being tipped as temporary coach for the Windies tour. I never had much time for Moores, too much coach speak, his record since taking charge is rank and for some reason he reminds me of Steve McLaren but I feel for him a tad.

 

[susudear]

Graham Ford

KP wants Graham Ford to be the next coach, says reports.

http://www.sport24.co.za/Content/Cr...b49f8b01dfd4c0eb2f7f8//KP_wants_Ford_as_coach

I've seen these kind of stuff only in the subcontinent teams. Since when an English captain appointed a coach of his choice?