Smith V Hayden

[Jono]

Changing the tune away from the negativity, I reckon they both have awesome temperaments.

 

[grapedo]

Hayden a very average player who'd never have succeeded at most times in Test history, regardless of how well he's done post-2001/02, because his play of seam and swing isn't good enough. As I've said ad nauseum.

Smith one who'd almost certainly have done far less well than he has had he played such same times, but someone who I still think has the potential to be more than a non-seaming-track bully.

Anyway, pointless thread.

Like I said Rich if you want to debate about smith and hayden on a dale steyn thread and not leave when I ask you to either stop or leave I had to start a thread for you. So obviously there is a point to the thread.

 

[Uppercut]

Aren't they both flat track bullies?

I think Hayden's overrated because I still remember him struggling when he first came into test cricket. But both he and Langer prospered in a period when bowling was down and tracks flat even though both had been found out in their first go at the caper.

Any time I see Hayden against a swinging ball he looks all at sea. Had he have played in an era when tracks were consistently more challenging and the bowlers swung it a lot more he would have had an average average. I think his average his higher than 49 btw. Ditto Smith - his is definitely higher than 47. He can't bat against Australia btw. He was a real Mr 30's man when he toured here, got a start than went out. Was gunned a bit by umps, especially in the ODIs but looked in horrible touch. And couldn't shut his mouth.

I never include matches against Bangladesh, Zimbabwe (post-being any good) or World XI in stats.

 

[jondavluc]

Haydos without a doubt.

 

[Magrat Garlick]

Stuff that may be of interest. As usual, all stats are non-minnow, non-world XI. (For simplicity's sake, Zimbabwe are completely excluded.)

Hayden's career average- 49

v England- 45
v India- 59
v NZ- 37
v Pakistan- 46
v South Africa- 48
v Sri Lanka- 51
v West Indies- 51

Smith's career average- 47

v Australia- 24
v England- 56
v India- 41
v NZ- 39
v Pakistan- 44
v Sri Lanka- 38
v West Indies- 71

Hayden has played longer, though, so anomalies would be expected to smooth out.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Changing the tune away from the negativity, I reckon they both have awesome temperaments.

Disagree slightly with Hayden. He's a bit too intransigent at times. He strikes me as a player with enormous self-belief (I guess he'd need to be to have coped with the years from his debut until he established himself in the test side) but the down-side of this is that (as is the case now) he tries to impose his dominating game on the oppo even when the ball isn't quite coming out of the middle.

The one time I can remember him adjusting his usual game was in the Oval test of the 2005 Ashes when he knuckled down to a very un-Haydenlike ton and this heralded something of a second (well, third, probably, if not fourth) coming as a batsman after a disasterous run. Lessons there, big fella...

Smith is more prepared to grind out the runs, but did lose marks from me when he went to hide in the middle order during our 04/05 tour after Hoggard caused him no end of grief with the new ball.

 

[Richard]

Like I said Rich if you want to debate about smith and hayden on a dale steyn thread and not leave when I ask you to either stop or leave I had to start a thread for you. So obviously there is a point to the thread.

I'll make whatever posts on whatever threads, so long as they're related to cricket in the Cricket Chat forum. You didn't need to start this thread at all, any replies will stay in the relevant thread. All you're doing is making something out of nothing.

 

[grapedo]

I'll make whatever posts on whatever threads, so long as they're related to cricket in the Cricket Chat forum. You didn't need to start this thread at all, any replies will stay in the relevant thread. All you're doing is making something out of nothing.

No I don't want a 4 page debate about smith and hayden on a thread about dale steyn that I started so I thought I would relocate you as people cannot have theri say on dale steyn since you were talking about smith and hayden.

 

[andruid]

Should start a 'what are we allowed to discuss thread'

 

[IndGunner]

Should start a 'what are we allowed to discuss thread'

lol.

 

[Richard]

No I don't want a 4 page debate about smith and hayden on a thread about dale steyn that I started so I thought I would relocate you as people cannot have theri say on dale steyn since you were talking about smith and hayden.

Err - no post about Smith, Hayden or anything else will stop people making posts about Steyn. Utterly unneccessary thread.

 

[Burgey]

Smith for sure! He keeps his cool when team needs him the most!

Example

His match winning knock against New Zealanad [ Last test of Gary Kirsten ]
Famous ODI against Aussies [ 438 ]
3rd test match against England in 2008 series win

And don't forget his wonderful, timely and completely necessary gobbing off like a complete tool before coming here last time and having his head handed to him while he personally averaged about 4.

 

[Richard]

Averaged more than that TBH and some people commented on how it might well have been a tactic to channel all Australian gobbing-off onto himself and remove it from the rest of his team.

If so, an inspired tactic, even if his own game wasn't up to performing off his own bat.

 

[Burgey]

Yeah I recall that but I don't buy it. I think his ego wrote cheques his team couldn't cash, to paraphrase a very poor movie.

Inspired tactic? They got beaten 3-0.

And he's an opener. Putting more pressure on himself would be the last thing they needed, surely. And what type of pressure would be taken off the rest because of what he did? He can't have thought the Aussies would run out of breath once he got out and the other would be spared a spray.

Next time Ponting says something stupid and Australia gets beaten, I'll remember it was an inspired tactic to take the pressure off the rest of the team and put it onto himself, etc. etc.

 

[Richard]

Yeah I recall that but I don't buy it. I think his ego wrote cheques his team couldn't cash, to paraphrase a very poor movie.

Inspired tactic? They got beaten 3-0.

2-0, and it was essentially 1-0 as the Third Test was only won by Australia due to rain.

And he's an opener. Putting more pressure on himself would be the last thing they needed, surely. And what type of pressure would be taken off the rest because of what he did? He can't have thought the Aussies would run out of breath once he got out and the other would be spared a spray.

Next time Ponting says something stupid and Australia gets beaten, I'll remember it was an inspired tactic to take the pressure off the rest of the team and put it onto himself, etc. etc.

Whether it works or not doesn't really impact on whether it's a clever idea. If Ponting says stuff in an attempt to deflect all opposition attention onto himself, then fine, good idea. However, Ponting isn't given to doing such things as he's not particularly wise with words.

 

[Jono]

Disagree slightly with Hayden. He's a bit too intransigent at times. He strikes me as a player with enormous self-belief (I guess he'd need to be to have coped with the years from his debut until he established himself in the test side) but the down-side of this is that (as is the case now) he tries to impose his dominating game on the oppo even when the ball isn't quite coming out of the middle.

The one time I can remember him adjusting his usual game was in the Oval test of the 2005 Ashes when he knuckled down to a very un-Haydenlike ton and this heralded something of a second (well, third, probably, if not fourth) coming as a batsman after a disasterous run. Lessons there, big fella...

Smith is more prepared to grind out the runs, but did lose marks from me when he went to hide in the middle order during our 04/05 tour after Hoggard caused him no end of grief with the new ball.

All fair calls, but 2004/05 was a fair while ago. I think Smith is undeniably a matured and better batsman since then, and so he should be as he hasn't even peaked yet IMO.

You criticism of Hayden's temperament is accurate, but I think he's a bit of an enigma. There are games (see 4th test Aus vs. Ind with Aust chasing, see 2nd CB Series final Aus vs. Ind) where he seems to be cruising whilst other members capitulate. But there are also times when he'll go out trying to be a macho man. But overall I still reckon that he doesn't feel the pressure when batting. Whether that means he always makes good decisions is another thing I guess.

 

[grapedo]

Err - no post about Smith, Hayden or anything else will stop people making posts about Steyn. Utterly unneccessary thread.

You always jump down people's throat for making random comments. And if you were in the middle of discussing hayden and smith and I made a comment about Dale Steyn I have absolutley no doubt you would'nt hesitate to have a go at me.

 

[Uppercut]

You always jump down people's throat for making random comments. And if you were in the middle of discussing hayden and smith and I made a comment about Dale Steyn I have absolutley no doubt you would'nt hesitate to have a go at me.

FFS!

Never has

been more appropriate.

You don't like Dicko, WE GET IT. Move on. Noone wants to join in your baiting and whining and melting the **** off everyone involved.

 

[Johnners]

I'm getting in and saying my bit before I cameback later and this thread has 367 pages without anything being said.

But you didn't say anything.

Hayden ftr.

 

[grapedo]

FFS!

Never has

been more appropriate.

You don't like Dicko, WE GET IT. Move on. Noone wants to join in your baiting and whining and melting the **** off everyone involved.

I have never even met him so how would i know. We just don't agree on many things that dosen't mean I don't like him.