Boxing thread

[DCC_legend]

Watched a re-run of the Gatti - Gomez fight yesterday. Gomez was in rampant form, Arturo Gatti never threatened a come back.

[Majin]

Ippo for the win.

Damn straight.

The list looks very American dominated.

Marciano is always an interesting question. Its impossible to argue with his record but many of his fights were hand-picked (though he was certainly not the only one to do that) and the calibre of figher he entered the ring against wasnt always of the highest quality.

Ali is another very interesting fighter as it is virtually impossible for people to divorce him being one of the greatest cultural icons of the 20th century from his actaul abilities as a boxer (which were certainly considerable but often his failings and faults are overlooked due to his revered status). The best thing about Ali is that he ducked noone and took on virtually allcomers. However there are many things that are often overlooked such as his career was over very early compared to modern fighters, allegations of rigged fights (again certainly not the only one), losing his speed early in his career and getting by on a solid chin and heart rather than the 'legendary' skill, looking very ordinary against 3rd rate fighters, entering fights (eg Foreman) as a heavy underdog, gamesmanship etc, losing to Spinks and others. etc.

Something like this is very difficult to rank to the agreement of all. From my POV Im disappointed to see Hagler so low.

Yeah, Ali is definitely an interesting case. Though, it's sort of like Boycs in that we don't know how his career might have gone if he hadn't been out of the sport for 3 years or so, IIRC. He definitely fell by the wayside in his later fights, that's for sure. But then again, I think personally I would rank getting through fights on his chin and heart is just as good as winning technically brilliantly. I don't know, maybe it's just me, but his "rope-a-dope" technique that he employed in later fights, which took a tremendous toll on him, it was admirable for the guts it must have taken to go in there with people like Foreman and fighting that way. But yeah I see where you're coming from with the separating the legendary status from the actual reality.

And regarding Marciano, I had suspected as much, but like you said it's a record that is impossible to argue with, like we hear with Cricket so much these days, you can only beat whoever is put in front of you. But yeah, to be honest I'm pretty new to boxing, or at least I have only recently started really getting interested in it and stuff, so my views are that of a total novice so I apologise in advance if I appear to be talking out of my arse.

Edit: And yeah, typical crap from the media, bigging up Gatti and virtually ignoring Gomez pre-fight and then going on about how Gatti was too old and washed up and crap afterwards. Totally taking away from the fact that Gomez put on a clinical display in that fight, dominated through seven rounds.

Also the Kermit Cintron fight before that was pretty explosive and fun to watch, I really like the look of that guy from what I've seen of him. Really strong, and his ability to throw cross-counters almost at will really impressed me.

[JBMAC]

Apollo Creed got royally shafted there, one feels.

[Burgey]

Yeah, Ali is definitely an interesting case. Though, it's sort of like Boycs in that we don't know how his career might have gone if he hadn't been out of the sport for 3 years or so, IIRC. He definitely fell by the wayside in his later fights, that's for sure. But then again, I think personally I would rank getting through fights on his chin and heart is just as good as winning technically brilliantly. I don't know, maybe it's just me, but his "rope-a-dope" technique that he employed in later fights, which took a tremendous toll on him, it was admirable for the guts it must have taken to go in there with people like Foreman and fighting that way. But yeah I see where you're coming from with the separating the legendary status from the actual reality.

Thing about Ali, though, was his ability to think so clearly when fighting some seriously dangerous opponents.

By all reports, he intended to take Foreman on by doing a number on him with his jab, but realised after 1 round the ring was too slow and he'd tire too much, so he reverted to what seemed like lunacy - letting arguably the heaviest puncher in the history of the division to that time beat on him until he got tired. That's gutsy.

He really had two careers - pre lay-off and post lay-off. Ali pre-lay off was as fast a fighter as there's ever been in heavyweights. Post lay off he lost a lot of his speed, but developed/ discovered how great his heart and chin were.

Nevertheless, what you say is right. It's almost impossible not to let your judgment of him be clouded by his iconic social/ political status .

[Xuhaib]

Khan was given a rough time by Scotland's Limond
British lightweight champion Jon Thaxton has challenged Amir Khan to a fight and questioned the newly-crowned Commonwealth champion's chin.
Khan, 20, was floored by Scotland's Willie Limond on Saturday on his way to claiming his first major title.

Thaxton said: "He's said a lot about me in the press, disrespected me, so now it's time for him to step up the plate.

"There have always been question marks about his ability to take a punch, now I'm convinced that he's got no chin."

Olympic silver medallist Khan captured the Commonwealth belt when Limond failed to emerge for the ninth round at the O2 Arena in London, but only after climbing off the canvas and surviving some torrid moments of his own in the sixth.

He's getting knocked out the first big punch I land, I would get the job done properly

Jonathan Thaxton

And Norwich's Thaxton added: "I've got the British title, he's got the Commonwealth title, so let's do things the old-fashioned way and put them both on the line.

"If he says yes, the fight can happen. My promoter Mick Hennessy wants to make the big fights, so we aren't going to let politics get in the way of things.

"I'm not going to hide behind my promoter, we will happily go and box on one of their shows."

Thaxton, 32, made the first defence of his British title with a stoppage of English champion Scott Lawton in March and he is convinced he would have the measure of Khan.

"He was floored heavily by someone I consider a light puncher, someone who gave up his status as mandatory contender to my British title," said Thaxton.

"He's getting knocked out the first big punch I land. I would get the job done properly, I wouldn't let him off the hook. I think he was one punch away from being stopped.

"He's got a bit to prove now and I am giving him the opportunity to fight for the British title against the number one lightweight in Britain.

"He has disrespected a few fighters. He's been talking about being ready for a world title by the time he's 21. I don't believe he's even good enough to win a British title."

[JBMAC]

Damn straight.



Yeah, Ali is definitely an interesting case. Though, it's sort of like Boycs in that we don't know how his career might have gone if he hadn't been out of the sport for 3 years or so, IIRC. He definitely fell by the wayside in his later fights, that's for sure. But then again, I think personally I would rank getting through fights on his chin and heart is just as good as winning technically brilliantly. I don't know, maybe it's just me, but his "rope-a-dope" technique that he employed in later fights, which took a tremendous toll on him, it was admirable for the guts it must have taken to go in there with people like Foreman and fighting that way. But yeah I see where you're coming from with the separating the legendary status from the actual reality.

And regarding Marciano, I had suspected as much, but like you said it's a record that is impossible to argue with, like we hear with Cricket so much these days, you can only beat whoever is put in front of you. But yeah, to be honest I'm pretty new to boxing, or at least I have only recently started really getting interested in it and stuff, so my views are that of a total novice so I apologise in advance if I appear to be talking out of my arse.

Edit: And yeah, typical crap from the media, bigging up Gatti and virtually ignoring Gomez pre-fight and then going on about how Gatti was too old and washed up and crap afterwards. Totally taking away from the fact that Gomez put on a clinical display in that fight, dominated through seven rounds.

Also the Kermit Cintron fight before that was pretty explosive and fun to watch, I really like the look of that guy from what I've seen of him. Really strong, and his ability to throw cross-counters almost at will really impressed me.

The discussion re Marciano and Ali is an interesting one.I believe shortly after Ali retired some computer experts in the US put both fighters relevant details into a program including how they won etc etc and the end result was that even though Ali at the end of the 14th was way ahead on points,Marciano had enough left to come out and knock him(Ali) out in the last.Someone who knows their way around computers could look for a reference and maybe post it here.

[Majin]

Is this what you're refering to?

[JBMAC]

Is this what you're refering to?

That's the one....rather fascinating I thought

[UncleTheOne]

wouldn't take too much interest in that espn tbh. it was done as part of a series if i recall correctly and obviously they only have the rights to certain fights so they have to work their list around that.

but seriously, george foreman at number 20? so laughable, almost as overrated as ali is by the casual viewer and uninformed media.

meanwhile the fight of the year will take place in cardiff on november the 3rd as the two undisputed kings of super middleweight get it on, britians finest by a distance joe cazlaghe gets in the ring with the danish viking mikkel kessler.

[FaaipDeOiad]

Mundine is much improved and would give either of them a decent fight IMO. He didn't exactly embarass himself last time against Kessler, and every fight since he's looked far superior. He absolutely murdered Soliman, in what was after all a title fight. Didn't see his most recent defence, though.

I'm looking forward for him to be matched against whoever wins, anyway.

[UncleTheOne]

Mundine is much improved and would give either of them a decent fight IMO. He didn't exactly embarass himself last time against Kessler, and every fight since he's looked far superior. He absolutely murdered Soliman, in what was after all a title fight. Didn't see his most recent defence, though.

I'm looking forward for him to be matched against whoever wins, anyway.

mundine would get beaten in much the same way by kessler again and completely outclassed against calzaghe, anyone who gets knocked out by featherfisted sven ottke is going to struggle to make waves against the elite.

the winner of this fight will be looking for much bigger fish to fry, the winner of winky-hopkins being their main target.

[Goughy]

The boxing website I use the most as it is deep and comprehensive has Calzaghe the top rated Super-Middleweight in history and Mikkel Kessler is rated 10th.

Anytime you have 2 of the top 10 in history going at it then you know you cant miss it.

http://www.boxrec.com/ratings.php?co...us=E&SUBMIT=Go

[UncleTheOne]

The boxing website I use the most as it is deep and comprehensive has Calzaghe the top rated Super-Middleweight in history and Mikkel Kessler is rated 10th.

Anytime you have 2 of the top 10 in history going at it then you know you cant miss it.

http://www.boxrec.com/ratings.php?co...us=E&SUBMIT=Go

the super middleweight division is still fairly new so the list is a little bare of top quality fighters, i mean sven ottke? yeah he finished unbeaten but never left germany and got some of the most dreadful decisions i have ever seen, no word of a lie, but robin reid actually got warned once in his fight against ottke for hitting him, then got robbed by the judges.

steve collins at number two is another odd choice, sure he beat benn and eubank, but both were well on the slide then.

although there is no doubt, calzaghe and kessler are top class fighters, there is no one between 160 and 175 that could take either of them.

[Goughy]

the super middleweight division is still fairly new so the list is a little bare of top quality fighters, i mean sven ottke? yeah he finished unbeaten but never left germany and got some of the most dreadful decisions i have ever seen, no word of a lie, but robin reid actually got warned once in his fight against ottke for hitting him, then got robbed by the judges.

steve collins at number two is another odd choice, sure he beat benn and eubank, but both were well on the slide then.

although there is no doubt, calzaghe and kessler are top class fighters, there is no one between 160 and 175 that could take either of them.

I pretty much agree with what you say. Super-Middleweight is a relatively new weight.

However, when Collins beat Eubank for the first time it was an upset and Eubank was still riding high.

Another point about Eubank is that he won his wars (well won 1 drew 1) with Benn but could be very ordinary and was himself the beneficiary of some dubious decisions. The fact he went undefeated so long was a lot to do with some generous ring-side interpretations.

One think that you have to love about Eubank was that although he was a talker and flash he had a granite jaw. Cant think of many that prefered him as a fighter over Benn though.

[FaaipDeOiad]

mundine would get beaten in much the same way by kessler again and completely outclassed against calzaghe, anyone who gets knocked out by featherfisted sven ottke is going to struggle to make waves against the elite.

the winner of this fight will be looking for much bigger fish to fry, the winner of winky-hopkins being their main target.

Mundine is something of a unique case because he entered into boxing so late. If you haven't seen him fight recently you haven't seen what he's capable of, simple as that. He's an infinitely better fighter now than he was a couple of years ago, let alone back around 2000-2002, and it'd be silly to underestimate him.