Is bowling really fast (90mph and over) natural or a learned skill?

[CaptainGrumpy]

I

Pretty sure everyone here will acknowledge that at some point fast bowlers lose pace and become less potent and are dropped/retire. If that's the point you're going to great lengths to make, I think your wasting your breath. We all know it.

You should read the thread from the start. The points I was asked to clarify by Dan is that Australia will drop its bowlers when they slow down, and that Lillee was still fast after injury, and McGrath does not advocate bowlers slowing down to develop control.

 

[Midwinter]

Isn't the 140 kph requirement a result of a "Moneyball" style analysis ? That is "teams with the faster bowlers win more games"
How fast is fast ? +140 kph

 

[Dan]

None of which actually counters anything that I said.

I'll summarise my point right down for you:

Bowlers are selected on the basis of their results (or expected results). Speed is not the deciding factor, it only becomes relevant when it impacts upon results (or expected results).

If Peter Siddle's pace went from the 140s to the 130s and he took wickets at a greater rate than he previously had, I highly doubt he gets punted because Lehmann feels the need to ideologically follow a deontological law of team selection that states "thou shalt not pick a sub-145km/h bowler". Alas, in reality, when his pace dropped, so did his results and he was replaced by a better bowler.

 

[kiwiviktor81]

What I can't understand is how someone as muscular as Mitch McClenaghan can't send it down quicker than 130. The guy is six feet tall and weighs 106kg, so he's clearly an exceptionally strong man. Is it all down to technique? If so, this would suggest that express pace is more learned than natural.

Also, didn't Wahab Riaz increase his speed from 120 to 150 over the course of a few years? A player couldn't do that if it was all natural ability.

 

[Dan]

It'd be a combination of biomechanics and physical conditioning, I suspect, with some people more naturally predisposed to good biomechanics and good physical attributes to bowl quick. I mean, Trent Boult looks tiny but can get it down at 145.

Fast-twitch muscle or whatever it's called, more so than gym strength.

 

[Howe_zat]

Bowlers are selected on the basis of their results (or expected results). Speed is not the deciding factor, it only becomes relevant when it impacts upon results (or expected results).

I get the impression plenty of bowlers are picked based on what they could do rather than what they typically do, particularly if they bowl fast

 

[CaptainGrumpy]

What I can't understand is how someone as muscular as Mitch McClenaghan can't send it down quicker than 130. The guy is six feet tall and weighs 106kg, so he's clearly an exceptionally strong man. Is it all down to technique? If so, this would suggest that express pace is more learned than natural.

Also, didn't Wahab Riaz increase his speed from 120 to 150 over the course of a few years? A player couldn't do that if it was all natural ability.

Slinging technique's typically have a fast velocity potential: Thommo, Mitch Johnson. Former javelin throwers bowlers are typically pacey with their "naturally discovered" actions: Thommo and De Lange.

The strong lean but wiry figures seem to be more successful fast bowlers (still have injuries - eg Lillee) and bowl very fast than burly people like Mitch McClenaghan, who often, not always, struggle with injuries. This will influence the changes to their technique over time. Fred Trueman was fast and burly. But how many can you think of who were burly and genuinely fast?

I believe that the natural bowling action will form a blue print of velocity potential that can be refined with technique. The same person bowling some actions will be faster than others, so technique is relevant. Some experts say that express pace cannot be made. Which I take to mean that the action and the person delivering the action has a maximum pace potential. Some people can tweak their actions or exert more effort for more pace. Some people cannot.

I find Damien Fleming's comments about fast bowling and various techniques and ball release absolutely fascinating.

 

[fredfertang]

Bowling 90+ is a natural skill. When I was a few days old and got out of the hospital for the first time, my dad immediately took me to net practise. Unfortunately I struggled to send down six 90mph deliveries in a row - to be honest it was a big ask just to land it on the pitch - and so my dad had to sit me down and talk about how I would never be an international fast bowler.

So he went out and bought you a bat I hope?

 

[kiwiviktor81]

I reckon that shoulder and joint flexibility is underrated when it comes to express pace. Like CaptainGrumpy says about the slingy action - this is only possible if a player is very flexible in the shoulder area.

I reckon McClenaghan would kick the **** out of Boult when it came to throwing something heavy, like a shotput or a discus. But for something lighter like a cricket ball it more comes down to being lithe and lean imo. Shoaib Akhtar wasn't particularly muscular.

 

[Dan]

I get the impression plenty of bowlers are picked based on what they could do rather than what they typically do, particularly if they bowl fast

Add 'potential' next to 'expected' then.

I mean, you don't pick Mohammad Sami ahead of Glenn McGrath because pace is the be-all and end-all.

 

[CaptainGrumpy]

I reckon that shoulder and joint flexibility is underrated when it comes to express pace. Like CaptainGrumpy says about the slingy action - this is only possible if a player is very flexible in the shoulder area.

I reckon McClenaghan would kick the **** out of Boult when it came to throwing something heavy, like a shotput or a discus. But for something lighter like a cricket ball it more comes down to being lithe and lean imo. Shoaib Akhtar wasn't particularly muscular.

Scour the athletics world for javellin throwers and the tennis world for players with a big serve who aren't going to go pro and get them bowling a cricket ball.

 

[Flem274*]

I reckon its natural, but suspect many test bowlers could reach high pace if they had the right action in another life and the desire. Fast bowling probably requires the right action and it's hard to bowl fast AND good.

 

[YorksLanka]

whilst bowling fast helps a bowler, he has to know what to do with that pace and/control it..prime example Shoaib Akhtar- just interested in bowling as fast as he could but bowled tosh most of the time..

 

[Dan]

Also, if there's one thing we've learned from the NZ Fast Bowling academy, it's that action standardisation along biomechanical lines may make bowlers quicker, but it also breaks them. Working within the natural action of bowlers is key; from that end there are certainly upper limits on how much pace one can add without changing the action so dramatically that they spend their entire career on the sidelines (see: Richard Sherlock)

 

[CaptainGrumpy]

Add 'potential' next to 'expected' then.

I mean, you don't pick Mohammad Sami ahead of Glenn McGrath because pace is the be-all and end-all.

As for Glen McGrath:

The Stands : The physics of fast: Why McGrath was faster than you think | ESPN Cricinfo - Why Glen McGrath was faster than the speed gun, and further more:

?I hate seeing guys bowl slower to get a little bit more control?

Glenn McGrath says

Inaccuracy is just one of those things. I hate seeing guys bowl slower to get a little bit more control. Obviously you need control and that's how you build pressure and get wickets. But if you are slowing down to get that control, I am not a big fan. I would rather see the guys do a lot more work in the nets to get that control – target bowling,”

 

[Dan]

Proves my point, no? Speed gun isn't everything and all that?

 

[CaptainGrumpy]

whilst bowling fast helps a bowler, he has to know what to do with that pace and/control it..prime example Shoaib Akhtar- just interested in bowling as fast as he could but bowled tosh most of the time..

A SR of 45 and an average of 25.7. Cannot have all been tosh or were the batsmen scared of his tosh?

 

[CaptainGrumpy]

Proves my point, no? Speed gun isn't everything and all that?

Ha.

From the Teflon school of political spin.

 

[Top_Cat]

EDIT: One video per post? You gotta be kidding me.

There's a lot of natural ability, sure, but there's a lot of honing too. Have a look at the respective actions of Alan Donald and Brett Lee prior to playing Test cricket.

 

[Top_Cat]