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Thread: Graeme Swann Appreciation Thread

  1. #31
    International 12th Man Slifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salamuddin View Post
    To say harbhajan was nothing outside India is a bit silly. He played key roles in India's series wins in the West Indies in 2006, New Zealand in 2009 and their series draw in South Africa in 2010.
    Obviously he was a better at home but that,s only to be expected given the nature of Indian wickets relative to those of other countries.

    Harbhajan was probably the better bowler against the better batting lineups. Swan for all his lofty status doesn't average under 30 against any of Australia, South Africa or India. Even his strong last series against India came against an Indian side sans laxman and Dravid and where Sehwag and tendulkar were clearly on he wane. Harby averaged under 30 against Australia and South Africa and there's no doubt he faced far better Aussie batting lineups than swann did.

    Harbhajan also played 40 tests more than swann - that is a pretty significant difference that also needs to be factored in if you're looking at overall stats. Swans career trajectory certainly suggests his numbers would have worsened had he played more tests.

    I don't think swann is that much superior to harbhajan if at all - certainly think you can mount a case for harbhajan being the better bowler. Truth is Harbhajan is actually seriously underrated as a test match bowler - 400 test wickets for a finger spinner in the covered wickets era is no joke.
    Lets see, Harbhajan averages under 30 vs the above teams u mentioned (at home) but away its a completely different story. Sorry but averaging 28 in India and 38 outside vs Swann who averages 28 at home and 31 away is all that really needs to be said. But I'll elaborate even further. Swann averages over 30 only vs Oz, RSA and India, he averages under 30 vs everyone else. Swann also averages over 30 away only vs Oz and RSA. Singh on the other hand averages over 30 vs everyone else except for Oz RSA WI and ZIm. Away Singh is over 30 vs everyone except for NZ, WI and Zim. Suffice to say that Harbhajan's reputation owes a lot to bowling on pitches tailor made for him where as Swann was a lot more versatile. And that quip about Swann playing an Indian lineup on the wane, sorry don't buy it. No matter how much on the wane their lineup might have been , Indians (sorry to generalize) eat spinners for dinner regardless of form.
    Cause Slifer said so.........!!!!

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slifer View Post
    Sorry but I think that the only thing SIngh has on Swann is total number of wickets, otherwise Swann is clearly a superior spinner to Harbhajan. Singh is nothing outside of India whereas Swann was effective in most places (particularly in India)
    Quote Originally Posted by Slifer View Post
    Lets see, Harbhajan averages under 30 vs the above teams u mentioned (at home) but away its a completely different story. Sorry but averaging 28 in India and 38 outside vs Swann who averages 28 at home and 31 away is all that really needs to be said. But I'll elaborate even further. Swann averages over 30 only vs Oz, RSA and India, he averages under 30 vs everyone else. Swann also averages over 30 away only vs Oz and RSA. Singh on the other hand averages over 30 vs everyone else except for Oz RSA WI and ZIm. Away Singh is over 30 vs everyone except for NZ, WI and Zim. Suffice to say that Harbhajan's reputation owes a lot to bowling on pitches tailor made for him where as Swann was a lot more versatile. And that quip about Swann playing an Indian lineup on the wane, sorry don't buy it. No matter how much on the wane their lineup might have been , Indians (sorry to generalize) eat spinners for dinner regardless of form.
    The 3 best batting line-ups that he faced incidentally...and it is nigh on 40 against Australia and South Africa. I don't disagree with you on their away records, Swann has a better record away from home no question but given his career trajectory it is likely he would have ended with numbers as bad as Harbhajan's if he had played another 40 tests (which is about 2/3 of Swann's entire career). Now looking at their away records :

    Harbahajn averages sub 25 in New Zealand, Swann hasn't played in New Zealand.
    They are about equal in West Indies and South Africa - Swann edges him out marginally in both places but you will have to factor in that Harbhajan probably played against stronger WI line-ups - Lara alone would make a big difference.
    Australia - well Swann was definitely better in Australia despite not being all that flash himself but I dunno, the batting line-ups Harbhajan faced in Australia were superior to any Swann has faced anywhere, let alone Australia.

    I'll give Swann Sri Lanka. As for Pakistan, again Harbhajan was crap in Pakistan but this was on pitches were the Sehwags and Younis Khans were smashing 200s for fun. Compare that to how the spinners performed and what the scores were in the 2 matches Swann played against Pakistan in the UAE.

    It would be unfair on Swann to say he faced a crap Indian line-up in India but clearly it wasn't the same Indian line-up of the past (Tendulkar was totally hopeless against spin). Can't hold that against Swann though because it would have definitely been held against him if he had failed. So yeah, all said and done it was an impressive performance. Harbhajan's 2001 Australia series shades it and anything Swann has ever done though.

    While I'd agree that Swann has been better than Harbhajan on the road, I don't think the difference is anywhere near as big as it is being made out to be.
    Kumar Sangakkara : Most overrated batsman ever.
    Avg outside the subcontinent : 40. Number of hundreds outside the subcontinent : 5
    Averages in the 30s in 4/7 countries excluding Bangladesh and Zimbabwe

  3. #33
    International Regular OverratedSanity's Avatar
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    Harbhajan definitely being underrated here. He had a poor last 4 years or so but before that he was one of the very best spinners on the world. There are two things which color people's opinions, imo. One is that he played his entire career when Warne and Murali dominated world cricket and also alongside Kumble for India, and people failed to appreciate he was actually a very good spinner in his own right. Second is that he had one series which was so mind bogglingly sensational that people forget he was a quality spinner for a good 5 years after the as well. If it wasn't for his last 4 years when he bowled dross, he performed at swann's level or higher, that too for a much longer duration.

    Still think Swann's slightly better but it depends on what you value from a spinner. Swann performed in more varied conditions than Harbhajan but he also had a ridiculously short career
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  4. #34
    Hall of Fame Member Furball's Avatar
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    4 years of bowling dross (and it wasn't someone bowling decently but just not hitting the highs they'd once hit, Harbhajan was rotten) is a pretty big black mark against someone.


  5. #35
    International Regular OverratedSanity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Furball View Post
    4 years of bowling dross (and it wasn't someone bowling decently but just not hitting the highs they'd once hit, Harbhajan was rotten) is a pretty big black mark against someone.
    Yup but doesn't erase 7 years of very good bowling. Swann had what, 4? Apart from a couple of bad years in the middle, Harbhajan was very very good from 2001 to 2009. Much more than Swann.

  6. #36
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    will greatly be missed..

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    Last edited by davidbarron; 05-01-2014 at 10:40 PM.

  7. #37
    Cricketer Of The Year Xuhaib's Avatar
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    Harbhajan would have been rated higher if he had retired after taking 300 wickets rather then the 400 he ended up with was really gun till 2009 or so.

  8. #38
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    Swann's career a little too short for my liking and Harbhajan's a little too long :P

    having said that I think Swann had a better stock delivery and looked more dangerous than Bhajji (at least from what I recall). Harbhajan never really spun the ball that much. But there isn't daylight between the two. It is pretty close IMO.

    The fact that Bhajji didn't come across as a very likeable bloke probably doesn't help his cause
    And smalishah's avatar is the most classy one by far Jan certainly echoes the sentiments of CW

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  9. #39
    International Vice-Captain MW1304's Avatar
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    I find it odd that these days 5 years and 60 Tests makes for 'a ridiculously short career'. Why was this discussion done in this thread anyhow?

  10. #40
    International Coach grecian's Avatar
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    So which Reality show will Swanneh turn up on first

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  11. #41
    International Vice-Captain MW1304's Avatar
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    He'll become a question of sport captain at some point.

  12. #42
    International Regular Contra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OverratedSanity View Post
    Yup but doesn't erase 7 years of very good bowling. Swann had what, 4? Apart from a couple of bad years in the middle, Harbhajan was very very good from 2001 to 2009. Much more than Swann.
    Surely 2012 and 2013 don't count against Harby? Dude played what 3 or 4 tests altogether in those two years? Another thing to remember is that Indian pitches became a lot more spinner friendly soon after Harby was dropped. From 2008-2010 India had some of the worst home pitches ever, even teams like NZ started to draw matches against us on those flat wkts. It's only recently that India started to prepare proper spinning Indian pitches.

  13. #43
    International Coach flibbertyjibber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grecian View Post
    So which Reality show will Swanneh turn up on first

    Jungle-thing
    Splash
    Strictly
    Big Bro
    Strictly 2014

  14. #44
    Spanish_Vicente sledger's Avatar
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    The only thing Swann and Harb have in common is that they are both obnoxious weeds.
    uvelocity and Shri like this.

  15. #45
    International Coach Shri's Avatar
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    Hated Bhajji when he started bowling that ****ing leg stump line all the time before being dropped. Such a ****ty thing to do as a spinner on day 4 or 5 of a test match. Leg side filth that neither turned nor did anything really. Was a fan of the speeds he bowled at and the revolutions he imparted on the ball as a spinner when he was on form though. A proper turner would make his deliveries spit off the surface spectacularly as we saw in 2001.

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