Any Fast bowler who got a lot wickets on sub-continent pitches w/o relying on swing?

[smash84]

your theory is interesting but off the mark i think

 

[JontyPanesar]

Yeah, Imran's been on record stating that the Northern Pakistanis just have a bigger build and are more genetically suited to fast bowling, but I don't buy that. You don't really need to be that big to be a good fast bowler, and I know plenty of Indian expats who have very athletic builds. Players like Umesh Yadav certainly have a good enough physique.

Heroes clearly matter in the subcontinent.

I suspect all if would take is for a few cricket ads on TV to show a reverse swinging yorker rather than endless Sachin straight drives and Dhoni helicopter shots. In 10 years that would create enough fast bowlers for India, but it won't happen.

While no one denies that hero worship is begin in the subcontinent, it strikes me as a completely lame excuse. So who was Kapil Dev's hero? If you ask Pakistanis, they seem to think that the reason they don't produce enough good batsmen is due to a lack of heroes. Why haven't younger Pakistani players been inspired by Saeed Anwar, Inzamam, Javed, etc?

I think it's pretty obvious that this is a more structural issue related to coaching and player development within the country. There are differing norms on how to bowl that pervade coaching at the developmental level, whether seam or spin. I think there are parallels for batsmanship, but bowling with an attacking mindset takes a certain kind of courage.
In India, I fear the coaching norm is: sacrifice some pace so that you can swing the ball and land the ball correctly so that our team wins the match today. Never mind that this isn't the biggest match ever, just be accurate and move it around a little so that your team has a chance to win. Contrast that with the "just bowl fast" mentality you hear about from Australian coaches and captains.
In a place like South Africa, where negative cricket does tend to have a hold, I fear the culture behind spin bowling is: Don't piss away the hard work of your seamers in this match. Keep it tight. Never mind flighting the ball, giving it a harder rip at the risk of line and length. Just don't eff this up.

 

[hendrix]

While no one denies that hero worship is begin in the subcontinent, it strikes me as a completely lame excuse. So who was Kapil Dev's hero? If you ask Pakistanis, they seem to think that the reason they don't produce enough good batsmen is due to a lack of heroes. Why haven't younger Pakistani players been inspired by Saeed Anwar, Inzamam, Javed, etc?
.

There are plenty of excellent batsmen Pakistan have produced, both historically and in modern times:
Hanif (great)
Javed (great)
Inzamam (great)
Anwar (great)
Younis (average >50)
Mohammed Yousuf (great)
Misbah (good)

whereas the good bowlers India have produced are:
Kapil Dev
Javagal Srinath (good, not great)
Zaheer (and that's pushing it).

 

[smash84]

While no one denies that hero worship is begin in the subcontinent, it strikes me as a completely lame excuse. So who was Kapil Dev's hero? If you ask Pakistanis, they seem to think that the reason they don't produce enough good batsmen is due to a lack of heroes. Why haven't younger Pakistani players been inspired by Saeed Anwar, Inzamam, Javed, etc?

I think it's pretty obvious that this is a more structural issue related to coaching and player development within the country. There are differing norms on how to bowl that pervade coaching at the developmental level, whether seam or spin. I think there are parallels for batsmanship, but bowling with an attacking mindset takes a certain kind of courage.
In India, I fear the coaching norm is: sacrifice some pace so that you can swing the ball and land the ball correctly so that our team wins the match today. Never mind that this isn't the biggest match ever, just be accurate and move it around a little so that your team has a chance to win. Contrast that with the "just bowl fast" mentality you hear about from Australian coaches and captains.
In a place like South Africa, where negative cricket does tend to have a hold, I fear the culture behind spin bowling is: Don't piss away the hard work of your seamers in this match. Keep it tight. Never mind flighting the ball, giving it a harder rip at the risk of line and length. Just don't eff this up.

Dude, you clearly have no idea about Pakistan. Javed, Inzy, Hanif were nowhere near as popular as Imran or 2Ws or even Fazal. Imran is arguably the biggest celebrity that Pakistan has ever had. Growing up in the 1980s and throughout the 1990s every kid wanted to be either Imran or Wasim or Waqar. Boys wanted to be fast and lethal and wanted to blow out the opposition and there is no doubt that because of Imran fast bowling looked much more glamorous. I still remember boys in the 80s running for a pepsi after the game and then trying to emulate Imran in the pepsi ad (wiping their brow with a cold pepsi bottle). That was the effect that Imran had and the 2Ws and Shoaib carried the torch.

 

[benchmark00]

Boys wanted to be fast and lethal and wanted to blow.

Only thing I got out of that.

 

[JontyPanesar]

There are plenty of excellent batsmen Pakistan have produced, both historically and in modern times:
Hanif (great)
Javed (great)
Inzamam (great)
Anwar (great)
Younis (average >50)
Mohammed Yousuf (great)
Misbah (good)

whereas the good bowlers India have produced are:
Kapil Dev
Javagal Srinath (good, not great)
Zaheer (and that's pushing it).

Um...thanks for fleshing out my point. That Pakistanis now claim they can't produce batsmen due to the lack of batting heroes is a lame excuse. Zaheer Abbas said this very recently. Yet they had plenty of great Pakistani batsmen not too long ago and now their batting stock is pretty poor. Where did all of the inspirational heroism go?

And while imran obviously holds unrivaled, surely in a country as large as pakistan, there will be enough youth inspired by past Pakistani batting greats, no? Or are Pakistani youth so homogeneous that there's only space for one hero?

 

[JontyPanesar]

Dude, you clearly have no idea about Pakistan. Javed, Inzy, Hanif were nowhere near as popular as Imran or 2Ws or even Fazal. Imran is arguably the biggest celebrity that Pakistan has ever had. Growing up in the 1980s and throughout the 1990s every kid wanted to be either Imran or Wasim or Waqar. Boys wanted to be fast and lethal and wanted to blow out the opposition and there is no doubt that because of Imran fast bowling looked much more glamorous. I still remember boys in the 80s running for a pepsi after the game and then trying to emulate Imran in the pepsi ad (wiping their brow with a cold pepsi bottle). That was the effect that Imran had and the 2Ws and Shoaib carried the torch.

If what you say is true, no one wanted to be the next javed in a country as large as Pakistan? Really? I find that hard to believe but you're obviously more knowledgeable on this than I

 

[NasserFan207]

Um...thanks for fleshing out my point. That Pakistanis now claim they can't produce batsmen due to the lack of batting heroes is a lame excuse. Zaheer Abbas said this very recently. Yet they had plenty of great Pakistani batsmen not too long ago and now their batting stock is pretty poor. Where did all of the inspirational heroism go?

And while imran obviously holds unrivaled, surely in a country as large as pakistan, there will be enough youth inspired by past Pakistani batting greats, no? Or are Pakistani youth so homogeneous that there's only space for one hero?

Well the point is, historically Pakistan have had plenty of great batsmen. They are having a batting drought ATM, but it may just be bad luck. If they are in the same position ten years from now then we could discuss it, however its not comparable to India who have never really had strong pace bowlers, or SA who have never had strong spin options.

 

[hendrix]

Um...thanks for fleshing out my point. That Pakistanis now claim they can't produce batsmen due to the lack of batting heroes is a lame excuse. Zaheer Abbas said this very recently. Yet they had plenty of great Pakistani batsmen not too long ago and now their batting stock is pretty poor. Where did all of the inspirational heroism go?

And while imran obviously holds unrivaled, surely in a country as large as pakistan, there will be enough youth inspired by past Pakistani batting greats, no? Or are Pakistani youth so homogeneous that there's only space for one hero?

No, this is the opposite to your point. Despite the odd collapse, Pakistan still produces great batsmen - they have had enough batting heroes there to inspire the youth. Younis and Misbah are modern examples.

India's last good fast bowler retired 20 years ago, and he was more inspirational as an allrounder than a fast bowler. They've simply never had any fast bowler as inspirational as Hadlee for NZ, Lillee for Aus, and any number of WI and English quicks and Imran for Pakistan.

Most people agree with the premise that without Imran there would be know Wasim and Waqar and Shoaib and Asif - all of them, each and every one credits the fast bowlers in the previous generation. This is not just paying respects. I remember when Sehwag first came onto the scene and he openly admitted to trying to emulate everything about Sachin. There was a point where you couldn't tell them apart, so successful was he in copying Sachin's technique.

It also seems to be clear just by watching how the crowds perform that heroes seem to be far more important in the developing countries of the SC than perhaps the more developed countries. This is a pretty common phenomenon. That said, heroes are still pretty adored outside the SC.

Here is Shane Bond:
Shane Bond 6-23 v Australia - YouTube
note these things:
1. The sweatband on the arm
2. The fist pump celebration (21 secs)
3. The 2 hands above head appeal (40 secs)
4. The haircut

Here's Adam Milne

Not only is the action strikingly similar, look at the haircut, sweatband, celebration (31s), appeal (40s) etc etc. He even has made a point of developing the same inswinger in his LO bowling.

 

[Black_Warrior]

Hero worshipping definitely players a part in the subcontinent there is no denying that. Even Khurram Manzoor recently said that Younis Khan was his inspiration.
Azhar ali has talked about emulating Mohammad Yousuf.
But Pakistan not producting great batsmen and India not producing great fast bowlers do not have the same reasons.

In Pakistan, while it is true the out of 10 kids, 7 would want to be Imran, Wasim, Waqar, Shoaib and 3 would want to be Miandad, Inzamam or Anwar, so the question is where are those 3 kids who want to be Miandad?
But the problem is of course the structure and the quality of first class cricket.

The quality of first class cricket in Pakistan is atrocious to say the least, and it has just gone from bad to worse.

Two of Pakistan's best batsmen in the last two decades, Inzy and Anwar were not products of a system but hand picked by an individual.
Once that individual is no longer involved with cricket, there isn't anyone who is handpicking special talent and guiding them.
So players are picked based on their first class records and performances like in other countries.
Only problem is that the standard of first class cricket is so low that its a very very big gap to overcome for someone who is coming straight out of first class cricket.
Also, the younger lot like Umar Akmals are more interested in playing for various franchises and T20 leagues rather than trying to secure an opportunity to play county cricket for a few seasons to upgrade their game.

In India, I do believe bowlers like Kapil Dev and Srinath are good enough to inspire a handful of people, obviously there will be more inspired by Tendulkar or Sehwag.
But the problem lies with the individual as far as I can see.
The reason people like Zaheer, Ishant, Munaf Patel or Sreesanth haven't developed is just plain laziness.
Zaheer just became bloated and unfit once he realized he can swing the ball effectively, he figured there was no need for anything else as he wouldn't need to bowl fast, but just run in and swing the ball and his poor fitness and propensity to break down is for all to see.
Same with Irfan Pathan..another effective swing bowler whose pace just droppepd and dropped to the point where the keeper stands up to him. You need to constantly work on your body to enhance your strength.
Ishant, Munaf and others, I am not sure how hard they work on their physical fitness and attempt to just run in hard and bowl fast for days and days.
When Ishant was being hammered in Australia by Warner in 2011, his response was come to India and I'll see you.
With that kind of attitude, it is no surprise that he is dreadful.

 

[JontyPanesar]

No, this is the opposite to your point. Despite the odd collapse, Pakistan still produces great batsmen - they have had enough batting heroes there to inspire the youth. Younis and Misbah are modern examples.

India's last good fast bowler retired 20 years ago, and he was more inspirational as an allrounder than a fast bowler. They've simply never had any fast bowler as inspirational as Hadlee for NZ, Lillee for Aus, and any number of WI and English quicks and Imran for Pakistan.

Most people agree with the premise that without Imran there would be know Wasim and Waqar and Shoaib and Asif - all of them, each and every one credits the fast bowlers in the previous generation. This is not just paying respects. I remember when Sehwag first came onto the scene and he openly admitted to trying to emulate everything about Sachin. There was a point where you couldn't tell them apart, so successful was he in copying Sachin's technique.

This has drifted too far away from the point I was trying to make in my initial response. I don't know why you thought I was denying Pakistan a fine batting history, I mentioned some of them in my first post. The fact that Pakistan have yet to produce anyone after Misbah (40) and Younis (35) of substantial promise makes people appeal to weak arguments for why the current stock of Pak batsmen is barren.
I always found the Sehwag-Tendulkar comparison silly. He was baby-faced, liked to stick out his bum, and was an aggressive opener in odis. The similarities with Tendulkar pretty much end there. Let's not compare work ethic, technique, or cricketing IQ. There's a lot that Sehwag quite clearly did not copy.

But back to the point I seem to be failing to make clearly:
The lack of heroes is a weak argument that fans appeal to out of desperation. Zaheer Abbas brought it up after Pakistan was knocked out of the CT, claiming that the latest generation had no one to really look up to. Indians who cling to this excuse for the lack of quicks are wrong and desperate. Zaheer Abbas is wrong and desperate.
You have an overly deterministic view of history. It's as if Kobe Bryant wouldn't have become great without Michael Jordan because Kobe Bryant imitated most of MJ's moves. If Kobe didn't look up to MJ, he would've looked up to someone else. The present will look to the past for a model to work off of.
So yes, I expect certain quirks to be imitated. You're not persuading me in the least that 'national heroes' are a prerequisite for producing great bowlers. If Bond didn't exist, Milne would have copied another great quick. Sure it's easier to identify with Bond because he's a kiwi, but if he has the talent, he wouldn't have found a Binga or a Dizzy to look up to purely b/c they were from across the Tasman?
And funny you mention Hadlee, who drew inspiration from Lillee. I think even Sachin said his initial hero was Lillee (lol). Inspirational heroes don't have to be from the same country. Sure, Indians are nationalistic, but Sreesanth looked up to Donald. Allan Donald looked up to the WI quicks of the 70s and 80s. There are so many examples cross-national idols. In the end, if you want to be the best fast bowler in the world, you'll look up to whomever was the best from your childhood.

Coaching, player development in domestic leagues, and poor fitness regimes are much better explanations for India's lack of genuine quicks. Black_Warrior has me covered there

 

[Black_Warrior]

And funny you mention Hadlee, who drew inspiration from Lillee. I think even Sachin said his initial hero was Lillee (lol). Inspirational heroes don't have to be from the same country. Sure, Indians are nationalistic, but Sreesanth looked up to Donald. Allan Donald looked up to the WI quicks of the 70s and 80s. There are so many examples cross-national idols. In the end, if you want to be the best fast bowler in the world, you'll look up to whomever was the best from your childhood.

Coaching, player development in domestic leagues, and poor fitness regimes are much better explanations for India's lack of genuine quicks. Black_Warrior has me covered there

And Imran who is supposed to have inspired all these fast bowlers in Pakistan, he has repeatedly said that Dennis Lillee was the reason he became a fast bowler.

 

[wellAlbidarned]

You're crazy if you seriously think Pakistan's batting issues are anywhere near comparable to india's lack of fast bowlers. One is area which needs improvement, the other is a complete vacuum.

 

[Daemon]

You're crazy if you seriously think Pakistan's batting issues are anywhere near comparable to india's lack of fast bowlers. One is area which needs improvement, the other is a complete vacuum.

Well the standards are certainly comparable today.

 

[wellAlbidarned]

Well the standards are certainly comparable today.

Pakistan are going through a slight barren patch, yes. It's nothing compared to only three decent fast bowlers in about forty years of cricketing history though.

 

[JontyPanesar]

You're crazy if you seriously think Pakistan's batting issues are anywhere near comparable to india's lack of fast bowlers. One is area which needs improvement, the other is a complete vacuum.

If you didn't read what I wrote or simply can't, just post 'tl;dr'. That's not the point at all. Fans appeal to lame excuses like 'lack of heroes' whenever their team is weak. Zaheer Abbas made the excuse and a few others on Geo pretty much agreed with him IIRC right after the CT exit. I'm trying not to make a qualitative judgment about India and Pakistan's batting or bowling here and hijack this thread into an India v. Pakistan debate.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Even now Pakistan have two very fine middle order batsmen in Younis and Misbah. Azhar Ali and Shafiq are poor right now but they've done well in the past ( Shafiq got a very good hundred on the SA tour). Compare that with India's bowling riches in Ishant, Vinay Kumar, Ashok Dinda, Umadkat, etc. And apart from Kapil, we have never had a very good fast bowler. I find it astonishing, honestly... 1 billion people ffs

 

[Black_Warrior]

Even now Pakistan have two very fine middle order batsmen in Younis and Misbah. Azhar Ali and Shafiq are poor right now but they've done well in the past ( Shafiq got a very good hundred on the SA tour). Compare that with India's bowling riches in Ishant, Vinay Kumar, Ashok Dinda, Umadkat, etc. And apart from Kapil, we have never had a very good fast bowler. I find it astonishing, honestly... 1 billion people ffs

Ok you had Sreesanth for a bit and he won you a test match in South Africa

And I think Indians are quite harsh on Srinath.. He was a pretty good bowler in my view.

 

[wellAlbidarned]

If you didn't read what I wrote or simply can't, just post 'tl;dr'. That's not the point at all. Fans appeal to lame excuses like 'lack of heroes' whenever their team is weak. Zaheer Abbas made the excuse and a few others on Geo pretty much agreed with him IIRC right after the CT exit. I'm trying not to make a qualitative judgment about India and Pakistan's batting or bowling here and hijack this thread into an India v. Pakistan debate.

It's by far the most logical explanation for the phenomenon. I'd hardly call it a lame excuse (that would be the "meat eater" argument), it's just interesting as a neutral trying to make sense of it.

 

[hendrix]

This has drifted too far away from the point I was trying to make in my initial response. I don't know why you thought I was denying Pakistan a fine batting history, I mentioned some of them in my first post. The fact that Pakistan have yet to produce anyone after Misbah (40) and Younis (35) of substantial promise makes people appeal to weak arguments for why the current stock of Pak batsmen is barren.
I always found the Sehwag-Tendulkar comparison silly. He was baby-faced, liked to stick out his bum, and was an aggressive opener in odis. The similarities with Tendulkar pretty much end there. Let's not compare work ethic, technique, or cricketing IQ. There's a lot that Sehwag quite clearly did not copy.

But back to the point I seem to be failing to make clearly:
The lack of heroes is a weak argument that fans appeal to out of desperation. Zaheer Abbas brought it up after Pakistan was knocked out of the CT, claiming that the latest generation had no one to really look up to. Indians who cling to this excuse for the lack of quicks are wrong and desperate. Zaheer Abbas is wrong and desperate.
You have an overly deterministic view of history. It's as if Kobe Bryant wouldn't have become great without Michael Jordan because Kobe Bryant imitated most of MJ's moves. If Kobe didn't look up to MJ, he would've looked up to someone else. The present will look to the past for a model to work off of.
So yes, I expect certain quirks to be imitated. You're not persuading me in the least that 'national heroes' are a prerequisite for producing great bowlers. If Bond didn't exist, Milne would have copied another great quick. Sure it's easier to identify with Bond because he's a kiwi, but if he has the talent, he wouldn't have found a Binga or a Dizzy to look up to purely b/c they were from across the Tasman?
And funny you mention Hadlee, who drew inspiration from Lillee. I think even Sachin said his initial hero was Lillee (lol). Inspirational heroes don't have to be from the same country. Sure, Indians are nationalistic, but Sreesanth looked up to Donald. Allan Donald looked up to the WI quicks of the 70s and 80s. There are so many examples cross-national idols. In the end, if you want to be the best fast bowler in the world, you'll look up to whomever was the best from your childhood.

Coaching, player development in domestic leagues, and poor fitness regimes are much better explanations for India's lack of genuine quicks. Black_Warrior has me covered there

Personally, I don't believe the general Indian public watch a lot of cricket that India is involved in. Only the complete cricket geeks do. And cricket geeks, unfortunately for us - are generally mediocre players. When I was at the age from which it's possible to develop into a good cricket player (no later than 14, IMO) I had barely heard of Kapil Dev. I knew about Chris Cairns. Had seen Brett Lee - thought he was an asshole - and a couple of the other Aussies, but I really only knew the NZers. If you listen to heaps of ex-players who become commentators, it's very clear a lot of them don't watch cricket outside of their jobs. And yes, we have Boult who's stated that Wasim Akram is his idol, but it's pretty clear that the Ws are much more of an influence in pakistan than NZ. I think he's the exception rather than the rule.


This is not an excuse, it's part of an explanation. This is a country of a billion people we're talking about here. They only have to get the coaching, player development and and fitness regime setup right in one solitary state and they'd have more stock to choose from than the whole of New Zealand. Yes, I'm sure it's impossible to underestimate how chaotic and politic-ridden cricket in India may be, but if they have the setu-up to produces numerous quality batsmen - as well as the quality fielders that they haven't particularly been associated with historically - then there must be a reason why there aren't these quality fast bowlers when across the border in a state with equally poor fitness regimes and shockingly bad domestic leagues they seem to produce a new freak talent every season.

And no, I disagree about Milne. I don't think he would have copied Lee. He may have tried to copy McGrath - which probably wouldn't work for him in NZ conditions and it would have taken him a few years to figure that out. He wouldn't have tried to bowl so fast. Even more of a loss, he might not even have taken to cricket. We have plenty of rugby players here who are worshipped beyond belief, but with Bond there was genuine quality and someone who could take apart the Aussies without relying on dibbly dobbly slow bowlers that are hard to get away.

The difference between watching Bond bowl and Gavin Larsen is ridiculous. No offense to the latter, but it's not particularly inspirational. Similarly, the difference between watching Munaf Patel bowl and Dale Steyn is astounding. Even without the arguments of effectiveness, one is just a far greater spectacle.