Why so less medium pace spin bowlers??

[hendrix]

The point I was making about the England attack is that they have noone anywhere near the Imran/Wasim level, or even Steyn/Philander, but they get the job done. Granted, they have batsmen that get the runs on the board, but they're still capable as an attack to completely run through a side - as Broad has done twice already this year.

I agree that there isn't really one true pace spearhead, but a) I think you're underrating Junaid - I think in a couple of years he could be at least as good as Jimmy Anderson b) the spearhead of the bowling is in Ajmal anyway.

re: Swann - I don't think outbowling R Ashwin and Ravindra Jadeja is particularly impressive.

 

[dynamosports]

Well there are people like afridi and gayle who hit 120-125 Km from time to time but bowling consistently with pace and your fingers rolling is asking for trouble. Not a bad thought though. cheers.

 

[veteran-80s]

The point I was making about the England attack is that they have noone anywhere near the Imran/Wasim level, or even Steyn/Philander, but they get the job done. Granted, they have batsmen that get the runs on the board, but they're still capable as an attack to completely run through a side - as Broad has done twice already this year.

I agree that there isn't really one true pace spearhead, but a) I think you're underrating Junaid - I think in a couple of years he could be at least as good as Jimmy Anderson b) the spearhead of the bowling is in Ajmal anyway.

re: Swann - I don't think outbowling R Ashwin and Ravindra Jadeja is particularly impressive.

Steyn will be an all-time great by the time he retires.

Outbowling Ashwin and Jadeja is no big deal but doing better than Indian spinners on the whole against Indian batsmen in India is something to be taken seriously.

Remember that uptil now only Saqlain Mushtaq in 1999 and Danish Kaneria in 2005 (when he outbowled Kumble and Harbhajjan Singh) and to an extent Nicky Boje in 2000 have managed it in recent times.

 

[Agent Nationaux]

Junaid has the potential to be a very good bowler but I agree, he may not be the spearhead. And your point about Gul is spot on. He was always a support bowler and nothing more.

Do you know anyone in the domestic scene who is good enough to come into the team?

 

[veteran-80s]

Junaid has the potential to be a very good bowler but I agree, he may not be the spearhead. And your point about Gul is spot on. He was always a support bowler and nothing more.

Do you know anyone in the domestic scene who is good enough to come into the team?

On Junaid - from what I have seen of him, he can be a decent bowler in the long run but he isn't half the bowler Mohammad Amir was. He was bowling at 150+ in Australia and New Zealand and swinging it when 17. Well before that he bowled that astonishing first over in the T20 Final. In England, he knew how to reduce his pace to extract more movement and use pace as a shock weapon. Junaid is nowhere near him.

As for Pakistanis, I have not followed domestic cricket seriously for over 20 years but here are my observations:

Javed Miandad is the staunchest, most jingoistic supporter of the current domestic setup. He is holding a corporate executive's position in the Pakistan Cricket Board and with the onus now completely on the Pakistani system to produce players, he should have the moral courage to stand up and say that he has been wrong all these years.

Five, six years ago, a bowler called Sohail Khan took a record haul in Pakistani domestic cricket. He broke several records, including most wickets in a match in Pakistan. He had a good action and generated genuine pace. He was 23 then but not considered good enough. Today, it is too late to play him. He did play two tests - a test played on a a bowlers' graveyard and the second in which he bowled steadily but by that time he was 27 already. Now he is 29.

The same holds for all other bowlers who do well but are never considered good enough. When they are finally blooded, they are way past their prime.

So if you ask me, I do not have many hopes. May be some years from now, a tearaway will come out of nowhere like Imran Khan did at Sydney and spark a revival. But with this setup and this management team? I am sorry.

 

[uvelocity]

and that kids, is how to begin a posting career

 

[the big bambino]

I don't really get this thread. Some of the egs given (Shackleton, Barnes, Asif) are medium fast bowlers not what I would have guessed medium pace spin. I'd maybe call Kumble and Underwood medium pace spin but they are both fairly recent examples which suggests the art hasn't died off. I see Appleyard was mentioned and he is an example I would consider medium pace spin. Cricinfo's profile has him down as an off spinner who bowled close to medium.

Appleyard was a handful on wet pitches apparently but he did well here as one of the supports for Tyson. You wouldn't think selectors to be clueless enough to pick a wet wicket bowler for Australian conditions. So I don't think the subsequent covering of pitches has anything to do with their rarity. Between wars Australian FC cricket had a few like Oxenham, Hurwood and McNamee. The pitches were generally true and the matches protracted. So contrary to perceptions it seems the medium pace spinner was good value on pitches that favoured attritional cricket. Maybe we don't see so many now bcos the art is hard to master and the pitches aren't as good as the ones prepared for timeless matches as once prevailed in Australia.

 

[Maximas]

all ****s in here to shut the **** up about my avatar please

 

[karan316]

Well there are people like afridi and gayle who hit 120-125 Km from time to time but bowling consistently with pace and your fingers rolling is asking for trouble. Not a bad thought though. cheers.

Yap, it isn't easy, like i had posted before, the most recent example I have seen is Piyush Chawla who bowled a lot of seam up deliveries(around 120k) in the IPL with his regular leg spin bowling and the batsmen found it pretty tough.

Its something which is really difficult but worth trying.

 

[Daemon]

Kohli is a fine example of a top class medium pace spinner imo.

 

[GuyFromLancs]

On Junaid - from what I have seen of him, he can be a decent bowler in the long run but he isn't half the bowler Mohammad Amir was. He was bowling at 150+ in Australia and New Zealand and swinging it when 17. Well before that he bowled that astonishing first over in the T20 Final. In England, he knew how to reduce his pace to extract more movement and use pace as a shock weapon. Junaid is nowhere near him.

As for Pakistanis, I have not followed domestic cricket seriously for over 20 years but here are my observations:

Javed Miandad is the staunchest, most jingoistic supporter of the current domestic setup. He is holding a corporate executive's position in the Pakistan Cricket Board and with the onus now completely on the Pakistani system to produce players, he should have the moral courage to stand up and say that he has been wrong all these years.

Five, six years ago, a bowler called Sohail Khan took a record haul in Pakistani domestic cricket. He broke several records, including most wickets in a match in Pakistan. He had a good action and generated genuine pace. He was 23 then but not considered good enough. Today, it is too late to play him. He did play two tests - a test played on a a bowlers' graveyard and the second in which he bowled steadily but by that time he was 27 already. Now he is 29.

The same holds for all other bowlers who do well but are never considered good enough. When they are finally blooded, they are way past their prime.

So if you ask me, I do not have many hopes. May be some years from now, a tearaway will come out of nowhere like Imran Khan did at Sydney and spark a revival. But with this setup and this management team? I am sorry.

How (or where) do you see the future of Pakistani Test Cricket in general?

I fear for the medium-term of a team that recalls Hafeez for the 4th(?) time.

 

[SJS]

Did anyone mention Tony Greig ?

 

[karan316]

Did anyone mention Tony Greig ?

Good pick. But did he actually mixed it up randomly? or he bowled either medium pace or spin depending on the pitch.

 

[veteran-80s]

Good pick. But did he actually mixed it up randomly? or he bowled either medium pace or spin depending on the pitch.

A bit like Colin Miller.

 

[veteran-80s]

How (or where) do you see the future of Pakistani Test Cricket in general?

I fear for the medium-term of a team that recalls Hafeez for the 4th(?) time.

Not good.

For one, you need to have international cricket in Pakistan. I do not see that happening until the Yanks leave this area.

On the cricket front, they need to focus on this issue strategically. If I had a say,I would ignore World T20 and the One-Day World Cup and instead identify key series to win.

In Pakistan's case, the next key series is the home series against Australia (3 tests in the UAE). Going by Pakistan's history, ODI success is the consequence of solid test performances and not vice versa. If I am able to forge a team that can win that series, it would automatically mean some aggressive team selection on the way - World T20 will be handled like that. A series win against Australia would set the team up ideally for the One-Day World Cup.

Pakistanis cannot win against Australia through spinners only. Regardless of how they bowled against England, they need to remember that post 1990 Australian teams have only generally handled Pakistani spinners well enough. So if I manage to produce a team that is able to win that series, it would mean unearthing some good fast bowlers as well.

None of this going to happen by the way. Once Dav Whatmore, a thoroughly decent coach who fell prey to the Pakistani hounding, leaves, the replacement will first burp over his predecessors failures, blame him for his own failures that follow and would still be doing it by the time he finds himself in the middle of the Australian series. There you'll find Siddle, Starc and Johnson teasing Pakistani batsmen while they fall to the far less dangerous off-spin of Nathan Lyon.

Pakistanis just love doing it: Any obscure spinner from a country not famous for producing spinners can have a field day against Pakistanis.

We have precedents:
Ray Bright (Australia) - 1980
Nick Cook (England) - 1984
Carl Hooper (West Indies) - 1993
Stuart McGill (Australia) - 1998 (in only his second test in a game where Pakistanis played three spinners)
Ashley Giles (England) - 2000
Paul Harris (South Africa) - 2007

As for the future of Pakistani test cricket, wait for a few more barren years before you see a revival inspired by some good fast bowlers. It won't be like the West Indies, where fast bowlers disappeared after 2000. But it won't be very pretty until then.

And I agree - Hafeez should not have been included ten years ago when he couldn't score 3 runs an over and was brutalised in the ODI series against the South Africans in 2003 when he failed to reach 10.

 

[hendrix]

Not good.

For one, you need to have international cricket in Pakistan. I do not see that happening until the Yanks leave this area.
.

I hate that this is seen as a controversial point of view.

 

[Prince EWS]

they need to remember that post 1990 Australian teams have only generally handled Pakistani spinners well enough

The current batting lineup is much more comparable to the 80s Australian sides than those sides though.

 

[Migara]

One of the rare pictures of Warnaweera in bowling stride. Resembles a fat bowler more than a spinner. But boy, he did give it a rip.

 

[Agent Nationaux]

I hate that this is seen as a controversial point of view.

Why though? All our domestic cricket is being played in Pakistan and there you get reverse as well as the wickets being roads. In UAE reverse doesn't happen plus the wickets are slow to bat on. This is a big disadvantage for Pakistan.

Or were you referring to the politics, in which case there is off-topic.

 

[Prince EWS]

Why though? All our domestic cricket is being played in Pakistan and there you get reverse as well as the wickets being roads. In UAE reverse doesn't happen plus the wickets are slow to bat on. This is a big disadvantage for Pakistan.

I think the biggest issue is that it'll be hard for cricket to maintain its status when no-one in the country can actually go to an international game. I realise cricket is increasingly becoming a TV sport so it's a less of an issue than it would've been in the past, but there are definitely cricketing issues associated with it that go beyond the pitch conditions.