Chuckers

[OverratedSanity]

Harsh - it's bloody difficult to type without bending your elbow

Easy to do it without straightening though, so no excuses

 

[Daemon]

And that's exactly what's been directed at me these last 2 pages. "you're wrong, tests how this", no evidence. I was happy to let go that whole discussion because it's obviously not going to go anywhere, there is no sufficient evidence to either side (probably the reason people aren't "backing themselves up" funnily enough) but for some reason you guys keep bringing it back up.

Why are you saying this after posting stuff like

Maybe true, I'm not sure what the laws before were, but what they were changed to was to suit Murali

The rules were changed for Murali, no one else

Not to mention accusing people of not backing up their arguments, when after admitting to not knowing anything about the studies in the 1990s and 2004, you've gone and posted stuff like

It's a complete farce. So the naked eye is obviously so unreliable to tell if bowlers are chucking or not, but we trust the naked eye to judge that they are not changing their actions while being tested?

especially when the testing process is so limited.

Application of scientific method for these tests is appalling, and certainly not statistically significant

Just fyi, I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you on this specific chucking topic. There's just too much ambiguity and a lack of information made public for me to have a solid opinion on the matter. I just think it's absurd how you're playing the victim here and felt the need to point it out.

Oh and in case you still feel wronged, regarding the Migara quote, he just wasn't called out on it because he does it all the time and practically everyone has given up on him.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Why are you saying this after posting stuff like




Not to mention accusing people of not backing up their arguments, when after admitting to not knowing anything about the studies in the 1990s and 2004, you've gone and posted stuff like

I honestly don't understand what you're asking me. Could you pick one in particular?

 

[Maximas]

And that's exactly what's been directed at me these last 2 pages. "you're wrong, tests how this", no evidence. I was happy to let go that whole discussion because it's obviously not going to go anywhere, there is no sufficient evidence to either side (probably the reason people aren't "backing themselves up" funnily enough) but for some reason you guys keep bringing it back up.

You only notice when I did it because you don't agree with it.

Like this:


If I said something like that you would be all over me. Nothing to back it up, pointing to tests that no one has seen the results to, relying on his own assumptions.

The only reason we talked about the tests back in 2004 in terms of not knowing the results for was just the individual results of each player, so we couldn't compare people like McGrath and Murali like Migara is doing, that is the only problem with the tests. Now I don't speak for Migara but he is at least referring to a credible scientific study which did indeed find that half the bowlers tested where flexing more than the law allowed, you have not provided contrary evidence other than simply denouncing these tests, I'm sorry but I can't accept that as proper argument material.

It's not just tests that back the Murali isn't chucking argument, you can look on youtube and find a number of videos where Murali bowls with a brace on that keeps his arm from bending and he bowls with the same action and gets similar spin on all three of his variations. Also, you might also be unaware of the very distinctive mechanics of Murali's body which allow him to rotate his shoulder in incredible ways and his wrists are like rubber, then there is of course his arm which is permanently bent at the elbow around 35 degrees, these combine to create a delivery that has an illusion of a chuck, but it is simply the result of an unusual shoulder rotation. There was also the test to show that Murali's arm speed was the same as a pace bowler, meaning that although he was above the old limit for spin bowlers (5 degrees) this limit wasn't really relevant to him, and Murali is at about 10 degrees for all his variations, which is right on the old limit, and well within the new one. Now go ahead and completely disregard all this evidence and complain that we don't treat you well, but there will be no sympathy

 

[Daemon]

You stated that there's no sufficient evidence for either side's argument, when earlier you've made plenty of posts stating things as though they're a matter of fact. You've accused people of not backing up their opinions, when you yourself haven't bothered to do any sort of research before criticizing methods that you have admitted to not knowing.

After all that you then claim you're the victim of some aggressive posting?

 

[Maximas]

I don't remember doing any of that Daemon!

 

[Flem274*]

Just have a three way pash already you lot.

 

[TheJediBrah]

You stated that there's no sufficient evidence for either side's argument, when earlier you've made plenty of posts stating things as though they're a matter of fact. You've accused people of not backing up their opinions, when you yourself haven't bothered to do any sort of research before criticizing methods that you have admitted to not knowing.

After all that you then claim you're the victim of some aggressive posting?

All good points. I've admitted several times that I was particularly argumentative earlier on (no more so than others though). All I said today was one poster just kept bringing it up when I and everyone else was happy to just leave it behind.

I don't remember doing any of that Daemon!

Would it be better if I said that my little brother took over my laptop while I was out? Because if so then that's what happened . . .

 

[Maximas]

How long were you out for? and believe it or not but my brother is actually older than me, but he seems to realise you can lose street cred quickly in a place like this

 

[Daemon]

I often take my little brother out while on the internet too

 

[fredfertang]

Would it be better if I said that my little brother took over my laptop while I was out? Because if so then that's what happened . . .

Get TheJediBrahJnr to sign up in his own right then, 'cos he's certainly brightened this place up a bit

 

[TheJediBrah]

The worst part is, I don't even have a little brother. It must have been my cat typing all those horrible things. Shame on him.

 

[fredfertang]

The worst part is, I don't even have a little brother. It must have been my cat typing all those horrible things. Shame on him.

Directly or indirectly ***** is responsible for most spats between blokes itbt

 

[harsh.ag]

You give them too much credit, Fred. I find ego to be a much more common cause.

 

[Manee]

I think one well-researched article could put an end to this entire debate. There only seems to be one or two points of disagreement that will never end until some data + simple argument is put forward. Any takers?

 

[Maximas]

which debate do you mean exactly?

 

[TheJediBrah]

I assume he means the "McGrath and Pollock bends their arm as much as Murali" debate. In which case I don't think there is any released data unless someone wants to go hack into the ICC?

 

[Manee]

which debate do you mean exactly?

Just the chucking debate in general. Have the ICC bent to Murali's whim or is the whole thing a result of good science and fair adjustment of the rules.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Just the chucking debate in general. Have the ICC bent to Murali's whim or is the whole thing a result of good science and fair adjustment of the rules.

Well what you've got there is a about half "it's a big secret and we don't know" and half "depends on your point of view" so I don't see an end to it that easily.

The rules are the rules, we can accept that, but all we need is a better way to enforce them.

 

[Fusion]

This is a general warning to keep things civil please. This is obviously a highly contentious debate. However, we can still have a passionate debate without delving into insults.