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Thread: ATG team from each nation- consensus thread- Aus, Eng, WI

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyear2 View Post
    Well I guess that is where we differ, I rate Headley as our best pure no. 3 and overall the best no. 3 after Bradman. What he did on a weak West Indies team where he was the only threat and scored 10 100's in 19 tests was just amazing. Him, Sobers and Viv are all in my top 6 bats of all time with Bradman, Hobbs and Sachin.
    So if Worrel needs to be in there

    Greenidge
    Worrell *
    Headley
    Richards
    Lara
    Sobers
    Walcott +
    Marshall
    Ambrose
    Ambrose
    Gibbs
    Then begs the question, do we need Gibbs with Sobers and Worrell? I think not.
    "If that Swann lad is the future of spin bowling in this country, then we're ****ed." - Nasser Hussain, 1997.

  2. #32
    International Regular harsh.ag's Avatar
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    Just want to know why all of a sudden everyone sees him as a better opener than Hutton, or would want to play Hutton in the middle order instead of a specialist who is a more efficient and fluent a scorer.
    I don't think of Sutcliffe as a better opener than Hutton, and if forced to choose to one between the two, will always take Hutton. However, when it comes to picking the Pommie XI, it makes at least a little bit of sense to have Sutcliffe opening with Hobbs, since they are perhaps the best opening partnership in history, and then have Hutton at number 3.

    What I want to know is where this notion of the likes of May and Compton being fluent scorers came from. When compared with known statistics, May and Compton have SRs of 39 and 38, to Hutton's 37 and Sutcliffe's 34. Fluent scorers. Really? I don't think you can ignore a difference of 10 in batting average for a difference of 4 in SR. Hammond's SR is 38; Barrington's 42. So, Barrington was perhaps a more fluent scorer than May or Compton.

    Let's face it. England have not had too many great batsmen who scored fluently. The only ones who can lay claim to that title are Gower (SR 50) and Pietersen (SR 63). So, yes, you can leave Barrington/Sutcliffe out for either Gower or Pietersen. A fluent Eng XI top order could be:

    Hobbs | Hutton | Hammond | Gower | Barrington | Pietersen |

    But I prefer

    Hobbs | Sutcliffe | Hutton | Hammond | Barrington | Pietersen | Knott +|
    Last edited by harsh.ag; 15-10-2012 at 12:35 AM.

  3. #33
    International Captain LongHopCassidy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harsh.skm View Post
    I don't think of Sutcliffe as a better opener than Hutton, and if forced to choose to one between the two, will always take Hutton. However, when it comes to picking the Pommie XI, it makes at least a little bit of sense to have Sutcliffe opening with Hobbs, since they are perhaps the best opening partnership in history, and then have Hutton at number 3.

    What I want to know is where this notion of the likes of May and Compton being fluent scorers came from. When compared with known statistics, May and Compton have SRs of 39 and 38, to Hutton's 37 and Sutcliffe's 34. Fluent scorers. Really? I don't think you can ignore a difference of 10 in batting average for a difference of 4 in SR. Hammond's SR is 38; Barrington's 42. So, Barrington was perhaps a more fluent scorer than May or Compton.

    Let's face it. England have not had too many great batsmen who scored fluently. The only ones who can lay claim to that title are Gower (SR 50) and Pietersen (SR 63). So, yes, you can leave Barrington/Sutcliffe out for either Gower or Pietersen. A fluent Eng XI top order could be:

    Hobbs | Hutton | Hammond | Gower | Barrington | Pietersen |

    But I prefer

    Hobbs | Sutcliffe | Hutton | Hammond | Barrington | Pietersen | Knott +|
    You know who could bat quite fluently when he felt like it? Beefy.

    This would require dropping Knotty for Ames or Stewart - who was perfectly fluent in an era of truly vicious fast bowling, and was routinely picked over Healy in contemporary world XIs - to shore up the batting properly at 6 and let Beefy be his volatile self at 7.

    Then we could have ourselves four specialist bowlers to boot, and personally I'd pick:

    1. JB Hobbs
    2. L Hutton
    3. WR Hammond
    4. DCS Compton
    5. MJ Brearley* (specialist captain in the English tradition), otherwise KF Barrington and Hutton as captain
    6. AJ Stewart+
    7. IT Botham
    8. H Verity
    9. AV Bedser
    10. JA Snow
    11. FS Trueman

    Personally I don't see how Knott is an auto-pick anyway; it's not like he kept to anyone truly difficult except perhaps Underwood.

    Also severely skeptical of SF Barnes' routine selection - record significantly inflated against a seminal South Africa and preferred to beat up amateurs in league cricket instead of giving his all for his county. In fact, his Ashes record is worse than Hugh Trumble's, who doesn't even enter ATG discourse.
    Last edited by LongHopCassidy; 24-10-2012 at 03:58 PM.
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoyBrumby View Post
    Gough?

    Wow, not the way I'd have gone, to put it politely.

    Thorpey and Ding Dong stretches too, much as I love the former.

    Or is this a "positional average" XI dealy?
    No mostly I have seen them play against the strongest sides in the world on all continents and not just against a couple of nations or a extremely weak SA side in the 30's....


  5. #35
    The artist formerly known as Monk Red Hill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongHopCassidy View Post

    1. JB Hobbs
    2. L Hutton
    3. WR Hammond
    4. DCS Compton
    5. MJ Brearley* (specialist captain in the English tradition), otherwise KF Barrington and Hutton as captain
    6. AJ Stewart+
    7. IT Botham
    8. H Verity
    9. AV Bedser
    10. JA Snow
    11. FS Trueman
    Don't mind this at all. I like most of your rationale as well. It's a well balanced XI. I'd include Ames over Stewart at 6, and I'd have Barnes over Snow. I couldn't include a guy with the average of 22 in the top six of an ATG side no matter how good a captain he was though!

    Hobbs
    Hutton
    Hammond
    Compton
    Barrington/Woolley/May/KP/Ranji
    Ames *
    Botham
    Verity
    Bedser
    Trueman
    SF Barnes

  6. #36
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monk View Post
    Don't mind this at all. I like most of your rationale as well. It's a well balanced XI. I'd include Ames over Stewart at 6, and I'd have Barnes over Snow. I couldn't include a guy with the average of 22 in the top six of an ATG side no matter how good a captain he was though!

    Hobbs
    Hutton
    Hammond
    Compton
    Barrington/Woolley/May/KP/Ranji
    Ames *
    Botham
    Verity
    Bedser
    Trueman
    SF Barnes
    You don't have a pair of fast bowlers to open the bowling.

    Having Trueman as the lone fast-bowler spearhead is not desirable in an ATG team IMO
    Last edited by watson; 24-10-2012 at 11:36 PM.
    Len Hutton - Jack Hobbs - Ted Dexter - Peter May - Walter Hammond - Frank Woolley - Ian Botham - Alan Knott - Hedley Verity - John Snow - Fred Trueman

    Victor Trumper - Bill Lawry - Don Bradman - Greg Chappell - Allan Border - Keith Miller - Adam Gilchrist - Alan Davidson - Shane Warne - Dennis Lillee - Glenn McGrath

  7. #37
    International Debutant Jager's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongHopCassidy View Post
    You know who could bat quite fluently when he felt like it? Beefy.

    This would require dropping Knotty for Ames or Stewart - who was perfectly fluent in an era of truly vicious fast bowling, and was routinely picked over Healy in contemporary world XIs - to shore up the batting properly at 6 and let Beefy be his volatile self at 7.

    Then we could have ourselves four specialist bowlers to boot, and personally I'd pick:

    1. JB Hobbs
    2. L Hutton
    3. WR Hammond
    4. DCS Compton
    5. MJ Brearley* (specialist captain in the English tradition), otherwise KF Barrington and Hutton as captain
    6. AJ Stewart+
    7. IT Botham
    8. H Verity
    9. AV Bedser
    10. JA Snow
    11. FS Trueman

    Personally I don't see how Knott is an auto-pick anyway; it's not like he kept to anyone truly difficult except perhaps Underwood.

    Also severely skeptical of SF Barnes' routine selection - record significantly inflated against a seminal South Africa and preferred to beat up amateurs in league cricket instead of giving his all for his county. In fact, his Ashes record is worse than Hugh Trumble's, who doesn't even enter ATG discourse.
    Best poster on CW for Brearley's selection

    Jardine is his only rival in my humble opinion - at least from an English perspective
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  8. #38
    The artist formerly known as Monk Red Hill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    You don't have a pair of fast bowlers to open the bowling.

    Having Trueman as the lone fast-bowler spearhead is not desirable in an ATG team IMO
    Um, Bedser opened the bowling in every test he played...

    Botham opened the bowling around half the time. So my attack is...

    Trueman - Bedser - Botham - SF Barnes - Verity


    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    Best poster on CW for Brearley's selection

    Jardine is his only rival in my humble opinion - at least from an English perspective
    That's absurd! You cannot POSSIBLY say that Brearley could be considered in an ATG team!

    Brearley is probably the worst top 6 batsman to ever play more than 20 tests for England or Australia.

  9. #39
    Cricket Web Staff Member fredfertang's Avatar
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    I think captaincy skills are important, and as I concluded in the feature I wrote about him Brearley was one of the very best, but with the likes of Hobbs, Hutton and Jardine available he's far too expensive a luxury in an ATG team

  10. #40
    International 12th Man AndyZaltzHair's Avatar
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    If a specialist Captain had to be selected as mandatory in English team, I would go for Jardine although Brearley was a great scholar and Captain but Jardine was not behind Brearley from tactical point of view as well and additionally he brings in batting depth. The thing with specialist Captain selection means the team has to be constructed around the Captain and Captain's name should be first on the list. So points to be noted that if anyone constructs a team with specialist Captain, then that Captain will need close to those sets of players that he had success with; therefore, if Jardine is selected, the team will definitely need likes of Larwood, Verity, Ames and if Brearley is selected, that team will need likes of Botham, Bob Willis. My point is if specialist Captain is selected in an ATG XI, different sorts of combination of players are required and if not, we can't shoehorn a specialist Captain into a side of players that the Captain is not familiar with at all.
    Last edited by AndyZaltzHair; 25-10-2012 at 03:50 AM.
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  11. #41
    Cricket Web Staff Member fredfertang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyZaltzHair View Post
    If a specialist Captain had to be selected as mandatory in English team, I would go for Jardine although Brearley was a great scholar and Captain but Jardine was not behind Brearley from tactical point of view as well and additionally he brings in batting depth. The thing with specialist Captain selection means the team has to be constructed around the Captain and Captain's name should be first on the list. So points to be noted that if anyone constructs a team with specialist Captain, then that Captain will need close to those sets of players that he had success with; therefore, if Jardine is selected, the team will definitely need likes of Larwood, Verity, Ames and if Brearley is selected, that team will need likes of Botham, Bob Willis. My point is if specialist Captain is selected in an ATG XI, different sorts of combination of players are required and if not, we can't shoehorn a specialist Captain into a side of players that the Captain is not familiar with at all.
    This is a very good point - I wouldn't fancy the chances of Trueman and Jardine getting on for example, whereas we know that he and Larwood had enormous respect for each other

  12. #42
    International Captain ankitj's Avatar
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    Is the purpose of this thread to actually drive consensus?
    RIP Phil Hughes. You were destined for cricketing glories!

  13. #43
    The artist formerly known as Monk Red Hill's Avatar
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    The specialist captain theory is a load of **** if you're leaving our guys of the calibre of Barrington, Hutton, Ranji or Woolley to accommodate Brearley in the top 6.

  14. #44
    International Vice-Captain kyear2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monk View Post
    The specialist captain theory is a load of **** if you're leaving our guys of the calibre of Barrington, Hutton, Ranji or Woolley to accommodate Brearley in the top 6.
    +1

    Quite stupid concept in general really.
    Aus. XI
    Simpson^ | Hayden | Bradman | Chappell^ | Ponting | Border* | Gilchrist+ | Davidson3 | Warne4^ | Lillee1 | McGrath2


    W.I. XI
    Greenidge | Hunte | Richards^ | Headley* | Lara^ | Sobers5^ | Walcott+ | Marshall1 | Ambrose2 | Holding3 | Garner4

    S.A. XI
    Richards^ | Smith*^ | Amla | Pollock | Kallis5^ | Nourse | Cameron+ | Procter3 | Steyn1 | Tayfield4 | Donald2

    Eng. XI
    Hobbs | Hutton*^ | Hammond^ | Compton | Barrington | Botham5^ | Knott | Trueman1 | Laker4 | Larwood2 | Barnes3

  15. #45
    International Debutant Jager's Avatar
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    Not a stupid concept at all - good captaincy is vital to the success of a side.

    Most people think here that making one of these world XI's would be an instant success with all these stars but I very much doubt it, we've seen before how compilations of players for 'world representative' sides function... poorly, no motivation etc.

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