Pakistan's bowling and India's batting?

[silentstriker]

I think we're mainly talking about pace bowlers though.

 

[bagapath]

I think we're mainly talking about pace bowlers though.

We should be. Because I believe that is the only difference between the teams. They are almost even in spin bowling or batting.

 

[subshakerz]

I would say they are pretty even. even if the pak batting is stronger in comparison, mainly because of miandad, it is not "miles ahead" as you say. but anyways the point i was making was to question the main assumption of the thread topic. i guess you agree with me. how would you compare imran - wasim - waqar with gavaskar - tendulkar - dravid? i would say they are, once again, even.

If you ask me, worldclass fast bowlers (of which India had none, not even Kapil counts to be frank) are much more valuable than worldclass batsmen. My impression is that deep down, most Indian fans would have traded Gavaskar in the 80s or Tendulkar in the 90s for an Imran or a Wasim. Bowlers win matches, and fast bowlers are generally better at it than spinners.

Over the last few decades:

Indian batting slightly > of Pakistan batting

Indian spin roughly = Pakistan spin

Indian pace bowling <<< Pakistan pace bowling

It's no secret really, out of all the subcontinent teams, Pakistan were far more successful outside of the subcontinent, and it was mostly down to pace. India have only caught up the last few years.

 

[Black_Warrior]

It wasn't always like that. When Pakistan started out, they were lucky to have Fazal Mahmood, the subcontinent's first worldclass pacer, but after he left, Pakistan relied mainly on their batting/spin until the mid-70s when Imran Khan came to the scene. Since then Pakistan's bowling has been consistently better than India with few exceptions. Pakistan and India both have produced worldclass spinners but when unless you have a Warne or Murali then pace matters more, especially outside the subcontinent.

Imran was an exceptional case, as the training and conditions in Pakistan taught him to be a medium pacer, and it was only through bowling in English counties, remodeling his action and aspiring to be like other great pacers that he transformed himself. He could easily have been one of innumerable subcontinent trundlers had he stuck to the same system.

Why does Pakistan continue to produce better pacers? I think it's a combination of a few reasons. Diet perhaps, and the fact that Pakistanis tend to play tape-ball cricket which helps in pace bowling more than a normal tennis ball. More than this, we are inspired by our biggest national heroes, so young Indians growing up would want to emulate Gavaskar and Tendulkar while Pakistanis growing up want to bowl pace like Imran, Wasim, Waqar and Shoaib. Indians of late look up to Wasim/Waqar as their role models, and the last few years we have seen better quality Indian pace bowling than ever in the 90s, Srinath aside.

Great answer...couldnt have said it better!

 

[Xuhaib]

If you ask me, worldclass fast bowlers (of which India had none, not even Kapil counts to be frank) are much more valuable than worldclass batsmen. My impression is that deep down, most Indian fans would have traded Gavaskar in the 80s or Tendulkar in the 90s for an Imran or a Wasim. Bowlers win matches, and fast bowlers are generally better at it than spinners.

Over the last few decades:

Indian batting slightly > of Pakistan batting

Indian spin roughly = Pakistan spin

Indian pace bowling <<< Pakistan pace bowling

It's no secret really, out of all the subcontinent teams, Pakistan were far more successful outside of the subcontinent, and it was mostly down to pace. India have only caught up the last few years.

Nah. India is miles ahead in this department.

 

[bagapath]

a combined indo-pak team in my books would be

gavaskar
sehwag
dravid
tendulkar
miandad
imran *
dhoni +
kapil
akram
waqar
bedi/chandra

if that composition is ok for you that also explains the strong points of each team

 

[subshakerz]

Nah. India is miles ahead in this department.

Really? Perhaps they are ahead now, but if you look at the last few decades it would be hard to declare India "miles ahead". They certainly were better in the 70s with their spin quartet, but they had virtually no spinner of note in the 80s whereas Pakistan had both Abdul Qadir and Iqbal Qasim. In the 90s Kumble was their worldclass spinner but was pretty much useless outside of India for the entire decade, whereas Pakistan had both Mushaq Ahmed and Saqlain who were matchwinners home and abroad. In the 2000s Kumble improved abroad and Harbajan has taken over his mantle while Kaneria is frankly around Harbajan-level, with Ajmal and Mishra looking like decent prospects.

Overall, India might perhaps have a slight edge, but "miles ahead"? I think not.

 

[aussie]

a combined indo-pak team in my books would be

gavaskar
sehwag
dravid
tendulkar
miandad
imran *
dhoni +
kapil
akram
waqar
bedi/chandra

if that composition is ok for you that also explains the strong points of each team

One of Hanif Mohammad/Majid Khan/Mankad over Sehwag & Engineer over Dhoni for me.

 

[subshakerz]

a combined indo-pak team in my books would be

gavaskar
sehwag
dravid
tendulkar
miandad
imran *
dhoni +
kapil
akram
waqar
bedi/chandra

if that composition is ok for you that also explains the strong points of each team

Frankly, I would put Fazal Mahmood over Kapil as the batting seems deep enough with Wasim there and we would have worldclass bowling though and through. We already have Imran as all-rounder. Spinner could be anyone to be honest, though for sheer weight of wickets it might be Kumble.

Sehwag vs. Anwar? Hard to say, I'm feeling that if Anwar had played in the 2000s he would be averaging over 50 easily (especially if Yousuf can). Anwar played in a harder era for batting yet played better IMO than Sehwag outside the subcontinent. And I'm a bit of a sucker for a left-right opening combo.

 

[Xuhaib]

a combined indo-pak team in my books would be

gavaskar
sehwag
dravid
tendulkar
miandad
imran *
dhoni +
kapil
akram
waqar
bedi/chandra

if that composition is ok for you that also explains the strong points of each team

too much Inidan bias

honestly Hanif for Sehwag while I like Dhoni but still I don't think he is the best ever test wicketkeeper from sub--cont.

 

[bagapath]

too much Inidan bias

honestly Hanif for Sehwag while I like Dhoni but still I don't think he is the best ever test wicketkeeper from sub--cont.

may be anwar for sehwag. but not hanif and gavaskar together. they will bat for all five days and create the unbearable kallis effect. need one opener to take the attack to the opponents. i prefer sehwag to anwar to do that. but wont mind it the other way also.

wasim bari and kirmani were probably better keepers than dhoni. but dhoni's keeping is not too far behind theirs. and his batting is way better than any other keeper batter. so he should stay.

 

[bagapath]

Frankly, I would put Fazal Mahmood over Kapil as the batting seems deep enough with Wasim there and we would have worldclass bowling though and through.

at the expense of sacrificing kapil i may agree with this point. but to come back to the topic on hand, this point of yours merely reinforces the fact that pak has produced bettter pacers than india. no one can argue with that point while the jury is still out on how superior the indian batsmen are compared to their pakistani counterparts. as i said initially, we should be narrowing the discussion down to why pakistan produces better fast bowlers than india?

and a word for the uninformed poster who had written earlier about nonveg/veg food being a factor. all hindus are not necessarily vegetarians. only 3% of them, brahmins, are. i am sure kapil ate as much meat as any self respecting pathan. also not all indians are hindus. so this arguments doesnt hold good. the actual reasons are probably more complicated than a vague/vagan explanation like that .

 

[AaronK]

a combined indo-pak team in my books would be

gavaskar
sehwag
dravid
tendulkar
miandad
imran *
dhoni +
kapil
akram
waqar
bedi/chandra

if that composition is ok for you that also explains the strong points of each team

there is no way.. that Dhoni is better than Rashid Latif or even Moin Khan.. purely as a keeper.. Rashid latif the best one from Sub contenant..

Saeed anwar in for Sehwag..spiners i will go with Anil Kumble..

may be anwar for sehwag. but not hanif and gavaskar together. they will bat for all five days and create the unbearable kallis effect. need one opener to take the attack to the opponents. i prefer sehwag to anwar to do that. but wont mind it the other way also.

wasim bari and kirmani were probably better keepers than dhoni. but dhoni's keeping is not too far behind theirs. and his batting is way better than any other keeper batter. so he should stay.

Ya... not to forget you got Dravid next.. can u imagin three all time slow pokers back to back..
Hanif
Gavaskar
Dravid

lol.. it is like u play for draw lol

 

[Isura]

It is just randomness. I'd say there's a 50% chance that India has the superior fast bowlers in the next 50 years.

 

[bagapath]

Rashid latif the best one from Sub contenant..

kirmani may not like that statement. as a batsman keeper package from subcontinent sagakkara is beyond comparison.

 

[Migara]

The meat eating business actually plays a part.

In SL, the majority is formed by Buddhists (70%) and Hindus(12%), who are very reserved in using meat. But the Muslims and Christians eat lot of meat. People from Suuthern coastal belt eat a lot of fish. And guess what, majority of fast bowlers of SL come from above groups, which comprises about 25-30% of SL population

Asantha de Mel - Southern SL
Graham Labrooy - Catholic
Vinothan John - Catholic
Rumesh Ratnayake - Catholic
Ravi Ratnayake - Catholic
Champaka Ramanayake - from Galle, Southern SL
Chaminda Vaas - Catholic
Prabath Nissanka - from Matara, Southern SL
CRD Fernando - Catholic
Thilan Thushara - Catholic
Nuwan Kulasekara - from Kalutara, Wesern province
Dhammika Prasad - Catholic
Lasith Malinga - from Galle, Southern SL
Farveez Maharoof - Muslim
Ishara Amerasinghe - Catholic

Bolded ones are the bowlers who bowled above 145k.

Only two people appear from other ethnic / geographical groups, who use less animal proteins. So I guess there is a correlation between diet and fast bowling.

 

[Naumaan]

The meat eating business actually plays a part.

In SL, the majority is formed by Buddhists (70%) and Hindus(12%), who are very reserved in using meat. But the Muslims and Christians eat lot of meat. People from Suuthern coastal belt eat a lot of fish. And guess what, majority of fast bowlers of SL come from above groups, which comprises about 25-30% of SL population

Asantha de Mel - Southern SL
Graham Labrooy - Catholic
Vinothan John - Catholic
Rumesh Ratnayake - Catholic
Ravi Ratnayake - Catholic
Champaka Ramanayake - from Galle, Southern SL
Chaminda Vaas - Catholic
Prabath Nissanka - from Matara, Southern SL
CRD Fernando - Catholic
Thilan Thushara - Catholic
Nuwan Kulasekara - from Kalutara, Wesern province
Dhammika Prasad - Catholic
Lasith Malinga - from Galle, Southern SL
Farveez Maharoof - Muslim
Ishara Amerasinghe - Catholic

Bolded ones are the bowlers who bowled above 145k.

Only two people appear from other ethnic / geographical groups, who use less animal proteins. So I guess there is a correlation between diet and fast bowling.

well but actually meat eating or not eating, is considered as talking against someone's religion, i think we should make it clear that can we talk about it or we can't
i mean now if someone from india 'll say that then i think it will be reasonable but if i start saying it, they'll feel like i'm speaking against someone religion
same applies to me too
so for me it's a sensitive matter

 

[subshakerz]

It is just randomness. I'd say there's a 50% chance that India has the superior fast bowlers in the next 50 years.

I don't think its random, India have played cricket longer than Pakistan and have the biggest population of any country playing international cricket. Yet they still haven't produced one genuine worldclass fast bowler. 60 years is a long sample of time.

I think when it comes down to it the difference is the playing culture in each country which produces cricketers. In Pakistan every boy wants to bowl yorkers or bouncers at pace when they are young, while in India it tilts heavily in favor of batting. And I think tape ball cricket also is very, very uncommon in India whereas in Pakistan its the norm.

 

[Sanz]

I think when it comes down to it the difference is the playing culture in each country which produces cricketers. In Pakistan every boy wants to bowl yorkers or bouncers at pace when they are young, while in India it tilts heavily in favor of batting. And I think tape ball cricket also is very, very uncommon in India whereas in Pakistan its the norm.

I think this sums up my feeling on the subject. In India kids learn to play with the heavier Tennis ball which has more bounce than the cricket ball, hence their inability to bounce the cricket ball.

 

[SaeedAnwar]

Nah. India is miles ahead in this department.

Qadir, Saqlain. Mushtaq, Kaneria. Think before you speak