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Thread: Javed Miandad

  1. #61
    SJS
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    Quote Originally Posted by aussie View Post
    Yes. 1983 home & away really highlights it. Do you have any links to your analysis on that record, would love to have a read..
    Here are links to a very detailed one I did on Merchant's career.

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    Hall of Fame Member Sanz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NUFAN View Post
    Ben I wonder if the fact Viv (sorry Marshall) and Gavaskar (sorry Dev) were often seen as the most famous figure in their respective sides while Miandad played second fiddle by and large to Imran.
    .
    Only because Javed chose to do so in the interest of his team. This is a major reason why Pakistan did so well in 80s and India didn't because both its stars (Gavaskar and Kapil) couldn't manage to keep their egos aside in the intrests of their team.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aussie View Post
    Yes. 1983 home & away really highlights it. Do you have any links to your analysis on that record, would love to have a read..
    Okay here it is. I did the more detailed one on another site - not CW. I realised after I came across this post

    THis one is from a thread named "Gavaskar vs Boycott" and was written in December 2007.

    Quote Originally Posted by SJS View Post
    I have voted gavaskar here so its clear what my opinion on this poll is. I have held that view throughout having watched both of them through most of their cereers (Gavaskar much more naturally) but I do have some reservations about the myth built around Gavaskar. I tried to do some 'deconstruction' on another site with a bit of research thrown in. Here it is since it is relevant to the debate here.

    Note :I have nothing to add and no intention to get embroiled into further debate on this.

    Gavaskar's career is a very interesting one. Before starting one has to state that he is one of the finest opening batsmen of all time but that should not prevent us from looking at his weaknesses. I have been fortunate enough to see him from his University days till the end of his great career. He was a batsman with a fabulous technique, a great idea of where his off stump was and one who could play all the strokes in the game though he gave up the hook very early in his test career.

    Having said that, he did show a slightly reduced appetite for runs when faced by the real fast bowlers who also moved the ball. Pure speed did not trouble Gavaskar but movement coupled with sheer speed did find this great batsman at a level below his best - considerably his best I would say.

    To analyse his career its not enough to talk of his record against the West Indies. Its much better to talk of his record away from the sub continent where the conditions did not often favour such bowling - speed and sharp movement - though there were the occasional exceptions to this. So lets look at how he fared in Australia, New Zealand, England AND West Indies.

    Gavaskar in Australia

    Gavaskar played three series in Australia.
    • 1977-78 (5 tests)
    • 1980-81 (3 tests)
    • 1985-86 (3 tests)


    He has a great overall record - or so it appears - 920 runs in 11 tests at 51.11 with 5 centuries. Breaking up the series and looking at each bowling attack and Gavaskar's performance against each shows an interesting trend.

    In the first series, the Packer series took away almost the entire Australian regular team and the attack Gavaskar faced had only Thomson of any class whatsoever. The bowlers who assisted Thommo with the new ball during this series were :
    • Wayne Clarke - who was making his debut
    • JB Gannon - who was making his debut never to play again
    • IW Callen - who was making his debut never to play again


    Gavaskar's 450 runs at 50 each do not appear all that great in the light of this attack. He scored three centuries in the five tests.

    In the last series in 1985-86, McDermott (a reasonable bowler) was assisted by :
    • DR Gilbert - who had made his debut earlier that year
    • Bruce Reid - making his debut and
    • Merv Hughes - making his debut !!


    Gavaskar broke-in a lot of debutants down under

    He averaged 117 plus in the three tests he played in this series.

    Thus in these two series with five debutants and another near-debutant, Gavaskar scored 802 runs in 8 tests with five hundreds ! Great.

    The series in the middle - 1980-81 - was the only time Gavaskar faced Dennis Lillee in a test match although they both made their debut in the 1970-71 season and Gavaskar outlasted Lillee by three years !

    In this series, Lillee was assisted by Lenny Pascoe and Rodney Hogg. Gavaskar scored a fighting 70 in the last innings of this three test series in a partnership of 165 for the first wicket with Chetan Chauhan to set up Australia a mere 142 to win the series 2-0. Kapil rocked Australia with 5 for 28 for India to win the match by an amazing 59 runs and draw the series.

    Gavaskar, before that 70, had scores of 0. 10. 23. 5 and 10. He averaged 19.67 for the series.

    You cant help but wonder how he would have fared had he faced Lillee more often. Maybe he would have come out on top maybe not ...

    Gavaskar in NewZealand

    Gavaskar played just two series in NewZealand.

    • 1975-76 - 3 tests - 266 runs at 66.5
    • 1980-81 - 3 tests - 126 runs at 25.2


    Not bad you could say. One good series one bad and an overall average of 43.6 . But who was the best NewZealand bowler of the day ? Richard Hadlee - right.

    Hadlee missed the first test of the first series. Gavaskar scored 116 and 35 not out. The young Hadlee played the next two games and Gavaskar got 22, 71, and 22.

    In the next series, Hadlee , now assisted by Lance Cairns played all the three tests and Gavaskar scored 23, 12, 53, 5 and 33 !

    It is strange. 151 for once out in one game and an average of 30 in the next five and Hadlee happens to be a conspicuous difference between the two sets of games.

    Gavaskar in West Indies.

    Gavaskar played three series in the Carribean.
    • 1970-71 (4 tests) 774 runs at 154 +
    • 1975-76 (4 tests) 390 runs at 55.7
    • 1982-83 (5 tests) 240 runs at 30


    The bowling attack of Gavaskar's debut series need not be discussed. Its well known that an ageing Sobers - as a bowler far from his best - was probably the better bowler in the side. But what of the other two series.

    In the second series. Andy Roberts was available only for two games, Holding, who bowled pretty well, was making his debut (not again) and Brendon Julien and Wayne Daniell brought up the rear. It was a reasonable attack though not a fearsome one and nowhere near the great West Indian attacks we talk of with awe. Gavaskar did well averaging in the mid fifties. This was not an attack to bother this great batsman.

    The third series saw Gavasker faced with the full fury of the Windies pace battery. Holding, Roberts, Garner and Marshall were available right through the series.

    Gavaskar scored a superb 147 not out in the middle of the series - the 3rd test which was drawn without even a single innings of either side being completed. However, on either side of this century Gavaskar had scores of 20, 0, 1, 32, 2, 19, 18, 1. Clearly the fearsome foursome had the measure of our great little master.

    Gavaskar in England

    Gavaskar toured England five times - more than any other country. Except for 1979, his record was far from great. The 1979 tour saw Gavaskar in great touch and he played probably the finest innings an Indian has played in England ever. He scored 542 runs on this tour at 77.4 with four fifties and a magnificient 221. In the other four series he scored :-

    • 1971 - 3 tests - 144 runs at 24 - 1 fifty
    • 1974 - 3 tests - 217 runs at 36.2 - 1 fifty and 1 hundred
    • 1982 - 3 tests - 74 runs at 24.7 each - no fifty
    • 1986 - 3 tests - 175 runs at 29.2 each - 1 fifty


    Not a great record.

    The bowlers for these series were mainly Snow & Price, Old, Arnold & Hendricks, Willis & Botham and Dilley & Foster (with Pringle for company).

    Well Gavaskar had his problems lets say and leave it at that.

    RESPONDING TO A QUERY ON WHO GAVASKAR FELL TO IN THESE SERIES
    .

    Although one doesn't always fall to the bowler who is troubling him which is why we say so-and-so benefitted ecause a great bowler was bowling at the other end, here are the figures you ask for.

    1980-81 - Australia
    - New ball bowlers - Lillee, Pascoe and Hogg
    - Gavaskar fell to one or the other of them in each of his six innings in the series - Lillee (2), Pascoe (3) and Hogg (1)

    1975-76 and 1980-81 - NZL
    - Of the eight innings in which he face Hadlee he fell to him twice. Falling to Snedden twice, Lance Cairns once and Dayle Hadlee once.

    1982-83 - West Indies
    - New Ball Bowlers - Holding, Marshall, Garner, Roberts
    - Of his 8 didmissals in the series, Gavaskar fell to one or the other of these bowlers in seven innings and to another fast bowler, Winston Davis in the 8th.
    - Holding (3), Marshall (2), Garner (2)

    I forgot England tours. Here are the four tours where he did not do well.

    - Year : 1971
    - Main Bowlers : Snow and Price

    Gavaskar fell to them four times out of six innings, twice each

    - Year : 1974
    - Main Bowers : Arnold, Chris Old and Hendrick

    Gavaskar fell to one or the other of them in each of the five innings he was dismissed by bowlers. Old (3), Arnold (2)

    - Year : 1982
    - Main Bowlers : Botham and Willis

    Gavaskar fell to them in each of the three innings he played . Willis (2), Botham (1)

    - Year : 1986
    - Main Bowlers : Dilley, Foster and Pringle*

    Gavaskar fell to them five times in six innings the other time being his old 'friend' from England's tour of India, John Lever. Dilley (2), Foster (1), Pringle (2)

    *Note: Pringle wasn't a frontline bowler but did very well in this series picking up 13 wickets in just two tests at very little cost.

    I find it interesting to see how Gavaskar seemed to have trouble with those who made the ball come in as well as leave him. He was very good at letting the out swing go. We used to marvel at how he would let go deliveries pitching on the stumps and raise his bat and watch the ball pass just outside his off stump. He seemed to be flirting with danger but he knew exactly where his off stump was and where that ball was going. But if he got a bowler who made them come in as well as leave him, he had loads of problems.

    Balls coming in and towards his middle and leg stump he had no problem and could keep clipping them off his toes from to mid-wicket to fine leg for days. But let the ball come in from outside the off stump and if it wasn't short enough he would have trouble.

    Sometimes because it came in and had him leg before but more often when it didn't and he played at it not knowing it wasn't coming back.

    One of the most frustrating things of watching Gavaskar bat was to see him give a master class and then suddenly touch one to the keeper or the slips. This from one who left literally hundreds of deliveries withing millimeters of his off stump.

    His whole batting was built around leaving alone good deliveries if he could (or defending them if he couldn't) and punishing every lose delivery. His patience was phenomenal and his vigil (the wait for the loose delivery) never wavered. For someone who did not appear of an aggressive bent at the crease, Gavaskar was one of the most ruthless punishers of the bad delivery. He almost never missed it.

    I strongly suspect that bowlers who troubled him with sharp and late inward movement, coupled with one that goes through or moves away off the seam, completely upset his normal game by making him unsure of which ball to leave.

    But if he just brought the ball in and not much else, Gavaskar wasn't troubled.

    It was fascinating to see how John Lever scythed through the Indian batting in India in 1976-77 , taking 26 wickets at a ridiculous 14.62 runs each with his massive inswing. While Lever was running through the Indian batting he did not get gavaskar too often. Gavaskar was having a modest home series - 394 runs in ten completed innings with one hundred and one fifty and an average approaching 40. However Lever got him only twice while Underwood took him out six times.

    Gavaskar did not dominate Lever and was very watchful playing him but he did not get out to the new ball that often getting starts on most occasions with innings of 38 (140 balls), 71 (215), 18 (50), 39 (135), 24 (66), 50 (82), 108 (219), 42(103).

    Thats a lot of deliveries. He was also becoming more aggresive towards the end of the series as his strike rate shows.

  4. #64
    Hall of Fame Member aussie's Avatar
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    Thanks SJS, very solid breakdown of Gavaskar's record indeed. I won't say he was FTB at all, but i just goes to show facing the WI quicks at their peak in bowler friendly conditions, no batsman could handle it.


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    Global Moderator nightprowler10's Avatar
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    I was very young when I was watched Miandad bat and he was already past his best by then. I've always been of the opinion that he was a great batsman and without him we never would've been as good as we were in the 80s. He is somewhat underrated, yes, but he is considered almost unanimously the best batsman Pakistan has ever produced, so I'm not so sure if anyone really criminally underrates him. The Pakistani umpire thing is no joke, they always favored him from all accounts.

    This actually proves just how underrated Inzamam is/was.
    Last edited by nightprowler10; 10-07-2009 at 02:07 AM.
    RIP Craigos

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    I personally think Zaheer Abbas was the best Pak batsman. But that is just my opinion. I have not watched him play but have read a lot of good things written about him.

  7. #67
    SJS
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightprowler10 View Post
    I was very young when I was watched Miandad bat and he was already past his best by then. I've always been of the opinion that he was a great batsman and without him we never would've been as good as we were in the 80s. He is somewhat underrated, yes, but he is considered almost unanimously the best batsman Pakistan has ever produced, so I'm not so sure if anyone really criminally underrates him. The Pakistani umpire thing is no joke, they always favored him from all accounts.

    This actually proves just how underrated Inzamam is/was.
    Now that is a valid statement. Inzy is under rated - very much so and very unfairly.

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    This is unfair

    I think this is very unfair to say that he was favoured by Pakistani umpires. If you have really seen him playing you would know that at many occassions he was actually a victim of bad umpiring. He played more matches away from home and scored about 4400 runs with an average of 45.00, he scored 2 centuries in England, 2 in Australia, 2 in West Indies and 3 in New Zealand. He is the batsman, and perhaps the only batsman who was given out LBW 6 times in one series by indian umpires in 1979-80. When you talk about non-neutral umpiring, I would remind you that Indian and West Indian umpires had no better reputation than Pakistanis, so if Javed had this advantage then Sunil and Viv had same advantage. I personally think that all three have proved themselve great batsmen and its not fair to blame umpiring for their achievements.

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    International Regular Beleg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SJS View Post
    Now that is a valid statement. Inzy is under rated - very much so and very unfairly.
    why do you think he's underrated?

    same question for nightprowler.

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    International Regular JBH001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SJS View Post
    I completely agree. Miandad was shabbily treated by press and opponents alike in this matter. He was no worse than the Aussies of his time and he did have a great though rustic sense of humour. I think he got on the nerves of his opponents because his cockiness was combined to a somewhat uncouth exterior. I remember we used to call him "taangewallah" (man who runs a horse cart in town) because that is the how he looked. He lacked sophistication and it was held against him, unfairly I think. If Majid and Imran had tried to get on their opponents nerves from that close in ring, I think they would have been treated differently. We show our class-consciousness by the way we reacted to this man of the soil. He was unpolished and did not bother about it. Normally when players from India or Pakistan, in those days, lacked the social graces or a public school education, they tended to be somewhat subdued being ultra-conscious of their 'background' as it were. Miandad carried his rusticness as a chip on his shoulder and flung it into the faces of his opponents.

    I think the sub-continent should have been proud to have a player who gave back to the established powers of the game as good as he got but we had our complexes I suppose.
    Completely agree. Its a good thing that finally the sub-continental teams are letting go of that colonial mentality.

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    International Regular JBH001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanz View Post
    Only because Javed chose to do so in the interest of his team. This is a major reason why Pakistan did so well in 80s and India didn't because both its stars (Gavaskar and Kapil) couldn't manage to keep their egos aside in the intrests of their team.
    Yes. I think its often forgotten that despite the differences between Imran and Maindad there was a great deal of mutual respect between the two, based probably on their passion for Pakistan, and a 'hard' attitude to the game.

    Regarding Miandad's record against WI, Imran brings this up in his autobiography. From recollection he holds that any question marks over Miandad's ability should be shelved after he reeled off two hundreds against WI in WI during the famous 88 tour. IIRC he faced them again later in 92? But by then he was on the decline and not the player he had been, and his overall average fell to under 30.

    Definitely Pakistan's best batsman, and one of the great middle order batsmen. In the 80s only Richards and Chappell were his betters, imo.

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    Global Moderator Fusion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBH001 View Post
    Yes. I think its often forgotten that despite the differences between Imran and Maindad there was a great deal of mutual respect between the two, based probably on their passion for Pakistan, and a 'hard' attitude to the game.
    Imran respected Miandad the player and his competitive nature; and certainly both wanted Pakistan to succeed at all costs. But it was Miandad who acquiesced to Imran in the larger interest of the team. Imran would not accept Javed as Captain and was one of many players who boycotted the team when Miandad was made Captain. Personally I happen to think it was better for Pakistan that Imran became Captain, as I think he was the best choice for the post. However, that doesn’t take away from the fact that Javed sacrificed his own ambitions for the good of the team, something that even Imran wouldn’t do.

  13. #73
    International Regular Beleg's Avatar
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    even Imran wouldn’t do.
    of course he wouldn't imran was an ego-centric **** of an alpha male after all

    edit: that doesn't mean miandad was a saint either - both of 'em were scheming, convining rat-arse truckers in their own ways...
    Last edited by Beleg; 14-07-2009 at 07:57 AM.

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