CMJ's top 100

[oitoitoi]

"Mahela Jayawardene is a typical subcontient bully, I'd rate him in the same class as Virender Sehwag as far as his success goes. Last time I checked, he averaged 38 outside the subcontient. I'd say his a 40-42."

Where as Pietersen who averages 38 in the subcontinent is a real 50+ player and is a great? Double standards?

Exactly. It's always been this way. Never take the subcontinent seriously, but runs on roads in england against mediocre attacks are given the highest value.

 

[steve132]

Rank	Player			Country	Type
1	Don Bradman			Australia	Batsman
2	[B]WG Grace			England	Batsman[/B]
3	Gary Sobers			West Indies	All-rounder
4	Shane Warne			Australia	Spinner
5	Jack Hobbs			England	Batsman
6	Viv Richards			West Indies	Batsman
7	SF Barnes			England	Pacer
8	Walter Hammond			England	Batsman
9	Sachin Tendulkar			India	Batsman
10	Adam Gilchrist			Australia	WK/All-rounder
11	Malcolm Marshall 			West Indies 	Pacer
12	Glenn McGrath 			Australia 	Pacer
13	Muttiah Muralitharan 			Sri Lanka 	Spinner
14	Imran Khan 			Pakistan 	All-rounder *
15	Wilfred Rhodes 			England 	All-rounder
16	Keith Miller 			Australia 	All-rounder
17	Len Hutton 			England 	Batsman
18	Ian Botham 			England 	All-rounder
19	Dennis Lillee 			Australia 	Pacer
20	George Headley 			West Indies 	Batsman
21	Denis Compton 			England 	Batsman
22	Fred Trueman 			England 	Pacer
23	Bill O'Reilly 			Australia 	Spinner
24	Brian Lara 			West Indies 	Batsman
25	Richard Hadlee 			New Zealand 	Pacer
26	Sunil Gavaskar 			India 	Batsman
27	F.R. Spofforth 			Australia 	Pacer
28	Barry Richards 			South Africa 	Batsman
29	Alec Bedser 			England 	Pacer
30	Victor Trumper 			Australia	Batsman
31	Ray Lindwall 			Australia 	Pacer
32	Everton Weekes 			West Indies 	Batsman
33	Jim Laker 			England 	Spinner
34	Wasim Akram 			Pakistan 	Pacer
35	K.S. Ranjitsinhji 			England 	Batsman
36	Waqar Younis 			Pakistan 	Pacer
37	Graeme Pollock 			South Africa 	Batsman
38	Greg Chappell 			Australia 	Batsman
39	Frank Worrell 			West Indies 	Batsman *
40	Frank Woolley 			England	All-rounder
41	Richie Benaud 			Australia 	Spinner *
42	Peter May 			England 	Batsman *
43	Herbert Sutcliffe 			England 	Batsman
44	Graham Gooch 			England 	Batsman
45	Clyde Walcott 			West Indies 	Batsman
46	Ken Barrington 			England; 	Batsman
47	Ricky Ponting 			Australia 	Batsman
48	Kapil Dev 			India 	All-rounder
49	Harold Larwood 			England 	Pacer
50	George Lohmann 			England	Pacer
51	Curtly Ambrose 			West Indies 	Pacer
52	Jacques Kallis 			South Africa 	All-rounder
53	Geoffrey Boycott 			England 	Batsman
54	Clarrie Grimmett 			Australia 	Spinner
55	Allan Border 			Australia 	Batsman
56	Learie Constantine 			West Indies 	All-rounder
57	Javed Miandad 			Pakistan 	Batsman
58	Kumar Sangakkara 			Sri Lanka 	WK/All-rounder
59	Hedley Verity 			England 	Spinner
60	Kevin Pietersen 			England	Batsman
61	Arthur Shrewsbury 			England 	Batsman
62	Bishan Bedi 			India 	Spinner
63	Steve Waugh 			Australia 	Batsman
64	Les Ames 			England 	WK/All-rounder
65	Stan McCabe 			Australia 	Batsman
66	John Snow 			England 	Pacer
67	Sanath Jayasuriya 			Sri Lanka 	Batsman
68	Warwick Armstrong 			Australia 	All-rounder *
69	Alan Knott 			England 	Keeper
70	David Gower 			England	Batsman
71	Jack Gregory 			Australia 	All-rounder
72	Clive Lloyd 			West Indies 	Batsman *
73	Martin Donnelly 			New Zealand 	Batsman
74	Rahul Dravid 			India 	Batsman
75	Ted Dexter 			England 	Batsman
76	Andy Flower 			Zimbabwe 	WK/All-rounder
77	Maurice Tate 			England 	Pacer
78	Colin Cowdrey 			England 	Batsman
79	Mahela Jayawardena 			Sri Lanka 	Batsman
80	C.B. Fry 			England	Batsman
81	Bill Ponsford 			Australia 	Batsman
82	Andrew Flintoff 			England 	All-rounder
83	Allan Donald 			South Africa 	Pacer
84	Gilbert Jessop 			England 	Batsman
85	Michael Holding 			West Indies 	Pacer
86	Zaheer Abbas 			Pakistan 	Batsman
87	Neil Harvey 			Australia 	Batsman
88	Abdul Qadir 			Pakistan 	Spinner
89	Brian Statham 			England 	Pacer
90	Lance Gibbs 			West Indies	Spinner
91	Ian Healy 			Australia 	Keeper
92	Courtney Walsh 			West Indies 	Pacer
93	Graeme Smith 			South Africa 	Batsman
94	Bhagwat Chandrasekhar 			India 	Spinner
95	C.T.B. Turner 			Australia 	Pacer
96	Vijay Merchant 			India 	Batsman
97	Shaun Pollock 			South Africa 	All-rounder
98	Gordon Greenidge 			West Indies 	Batsman
99	Vinoo Mankad 			India 	All-rounder
100	Charlie Macartney 			Australia 	Batsman

Shouldn't W.G. be classified as an all rounder?

 

[oitoitoi]

Shouldn't W.G. be classified as an all rounder?

Indeed, and SF Barnes as a 'pacer' is a bit off too IMO. Didn't he bowl a mix of spin and medium pace cutters?

 

[bagapath]

Shouldn't W.G. be classified as an all rounder?

He was a terrific all-rounder alright. but he took only 9 wickets in tests. i assumed CMJ has included him for his batting alone especially for redefining back foot play.

as for SF barnes, he was a seam bowler. in a series of articles written in 2002 CMJ had mentioned that barnes bowled at mcgrath's pace at times. cardus doesn't call him a spinner either. benaud says he used his wrist to break the ball from leg to off but didnt spin it. (benaud watched him bowl once after he passed 60. cardus had seen him in action, i assume. CMJ didn't)

i've classified hadlee as a pacer coz of his sub 30 batting average. he could also be called an all-rounder.

i agree all these can be changed to what you guys are suggesting. no hard and fast rules here.

 

[Furball]

Unfortunately you are talking rubbish. We all know McGrath was unable to produce quick demolition jobs that above bowles were famous of, at least McGrath did it lot less than the above. Spells like & wickets for 1 run (Ambrose), we have not seen from McGrath.

England vs Australia, Lord's, 1st Test 1st Day 2005.

 

[oitoitoi]

England vs Australia, Lord's, 1st Test 1st Day 2005.

I definitely get what he was saying, mcgrath would very rarely come in and turn a game with 4 or 5 wickets in a single spell in the fashion that an Ambrose or Marshall or Holding or Younis could, however he would incredibly reliably pick up 1 or 2 wickets a spell pretty much without fail. He was a metronome, batsmen just knew that he'd probably get them eventually. Sure he did it in that match, but personally I can't recall another instance in against quality opposition in a very long career, however there are numerous examples from more destructive bowlers such as ambrose e.g his famous 7 for 1 against australia in australia, just exceptional, a record that will surely never be beaten.

p.s. gingerfurball do you basically live off that ashes series or something?

 

[vic_orthdox]

McGrath's got an 8/38 and and an 8/24 next to his name too... :

In the end, I agree with what you're saying. But I think it's more perception than reality, just because of the type of bowling. He never looked like he was going to tear right through you, so it was a surprise when he did. Whereas someone like an Ambrose would get his tail up, and smell blood, and you knew you were in big strife.

 

[wfdu_ben91]

I definitely get what he was saying, mcgrath would very rarely come in and turn a game with 4 or 5 wickets in a single spell in the fashion that an Ambrose or Marshall or Holding or Younis could, however he would incredibly reliably pick up 1 or 2 wickets a spell pretty much without fail. He was a metronome, batsmen just knew that he'd probably get them eventually. Sure he did it in that match, but personally I can't recall another instance in against quality opposition in a very long career, however there are numerous examples from more destructive bowlers such as ambrose e.g his famous 7 for 1 against australia in australia, just exceptional, a record that will surely never be beaten.

p.s. gingerfurball do you basically live off that ashes series or something?

And therefore wouldn't it be equally as hard, if not harder to play McGrath because he was so consistant? What I mean by that is he would rarely give anything away but other bowlers who are more likely to run through a lineup would be easier to score off when they aren't at their best.

 

[bagapath]

mcgrath was successful against everyone. ambrose wasnt good against india. when u r trying to split the greats such stats are handy.

 

[oitoitoi]

And therefore wouldn't it be equally as hard, if not harder to play McGrath because he was so consistant? What I mean by that is he would rarely give anything away but other bowlers who are more likely to run through a lineup would be easier to score off when they aren't at their best.

????? When did I say anything about it not being as hard? The whole conversation was regarding how mcgrath rarely ran through 4 or 5 batsmen in a single spell, which he didn't. Obviously it's common knowledge that he never gave much away, your not talking to ignorant people on this forum you know. It's the nature of pace bowling that the balls that are more likely to take wickets are the balls that are more likely to go for runs as in general you have to pitch it up and attack the stumps. Look at Waqar Younis, took his wickets at an incredible strike rate but went for runs too.

 

[bagapath]

a few weeks back i had said ponting, post his career, would be rated on par with g.chappell and slightly above border and miandad. CMJ has put him below chappell and above the other two. I know this is just one man's opinion but still i would like to assume he is not always too far away from most of the cricket pundits. i think ricky will move a few places higher once he claims some of the test records from sachin; most runs, most centuries etc. but it is very unlikely he would ever break into the top 30, especially when even lara and gavaskar are in the 20s.

 

[oitoitoi]

mcgrath was successful against everyone. ambrose wasnt good against india. when u r trying to split the greats such stats are handy.

Well for pace bowlers being good against india and being good in india are different things. Brett Lee is a good example; average 26 in australia, 60 in India. Mcgrath was exceptional in India, Ambrose suprisingly never actually played a test in India, I reckon he would have done well, he was basically mcgrath 5 mph quicker, perhaps not quite as accurate.

 

[wfdu_ben91]

????? When did I say anything about it not being as hard? The whole conversation was regarding how mcgrath rarely ran through 4 or 5 batsmen in a single spell, which he didn't. Obviously it's common knowledge that he never gave much away, your not talking to ignorant people on this forum you know. It's the nature of pace bowling that the balls that are more likely to take wickets are the balls that are more likely to go for runs as in general you have to pitch it up and attack the stumps. Look at Waqar Younis, took his wickets at an incredible strike rate but went for runs too.

Yeah, what I wrote from your quote was directed at another poster, who claimed that McGrath wasn't as difficult to face as Ambrose, Donald, Waqar, etc.

 

[bagapath]

????? When did I say anything about it not being as hard? The whole conversation was regarding how mcgrath rarely ran through 4 or 5 batsmen in a single spell, which he didn't. Obviously it's common knowledge that he never gave much away, your not talking to ignorant people on this forum you know. It's the nature of pace bowling that the balls that are more likely to take wickets are the balls that are more likely to go for runs as in general you have to pitch it up and attack the stumps. Look at Waqar Younis, took his wickets at an incredible strike rate but went for runs too.

ambrose was also a mcgrath kind of bowler that way because his bowling average is lower than pigeon's. but his SR is actually worse than mcgrath's and his econ is much lower which means he bowled tighter and longer to get his wickets. but the fact that he could take wickets in clusters while mcgrath's victims were more spread out, this is generalizing such phenomenal careers but still i will continue, could be because ambrose was marginally faster than glenn. and also because their main weapons, ambrose's bounce vs mcgrath's line, were such that when the wicket suited him curtly could go one step higher in attack whereas mcgrath was equally effective all the time.

 

[bagapath]

Well for pace bowlers being good against india and being good in india are different things. Brett Lee is a good example; average 26 in australia, 60 in India. Mcgrath was exceptional in India, Ambrose suprisingly never actually played a test in India, I reckon he would have done well, he was basically mcgrath 5 mph quicker, perhaps not quite as accurate.

but still, in 9 home tests against a team infamous for folding to good pace, he averaged 38. it is not even good. i love ambrose - but this is a fact i cant overlook

and he had a econ rate of 2.30 or thereabouts. that is called accuracy

 

[wfdu_ben91]

I've always been puzzled as to why bowlers don't recieve as much criticisim as what batsman do for not performing in less favourable conditions.

 

[bagapath]

if we are looking for a flawless record for a fast bowler here it.

v Australia 	1984-1991 	19 	36 	722.3 	135 	1959 	87 	5/29 	10/107 	22.51 	2.71 	49.8 	7 	1
v England 	1980-1991 	26 	50 	965.0 	232 	2436 	127 	7/22 	10/92 	19.18 	2.52 	45.5 	6 	1
v India 	1978-1989 	17 	30 	584.3 	128 	1671 	76 	6/37 	11/89 	21.98 	2.85 	46.1 	6 	1
v New Zealand 	1985-1987 	7 	12 	289.1 	51 	775 	36 	7/80 	11/120 	21.52 	2.68 	48.1 	1 	1 
v Pakistan 	1980-1990 	12 	23 	369.3 	67 	1035 	50 	5/33 	9/144 	20.70 	2.80 	44.3 	2 	0

 

[King Pietersen]

They do. Weren't you just involved in a Warne-India discussion?

 

[bagapath]

I've always been puzzled as to why bowlers don't recieve as much criticisim as what batsman do for not performing in less favourable conditions.

warne in india, murali in australia, lillee in pakistan, kumble anywhere outside india and many foreign fast bowlers in india have taken a lot of flak for not maintaining their otherwise amazing standards

 

[wfdu_ben91]

warne in india, murali in australia, lillee in pakistan, kumble anywhere outside india and many foreign fast bowlers in india have taken a lot of flak for not maintaining their otherwise amazing standards

Nowhere near as much as hearing that 90% of modern batsman are flat-track bullies and don't deserve to be mentioned in the same breathe as batsman from previous eras.