Is Dale Steyn the worst ever best fast bowler in the world?

[the big bambino]

Look they are so close I think it comes down to a subjective preference rather than an objective choice. For mine the best bowler I've seen is Ambrose and that is just bcos the feeling of fear and utter hopelessness I felt for my team when facing him.

[Agent Nationaux]

Not surprised at your definition of "class" considering Viv does your thinking for you. Marshall is at best a few decimals apart from Mcgrath if you look at the batsmen they dismissed. Not to mention the different times they played in with different rules. Hell even if you don't take those thing into account there is a difference of .70 between them (.4 between him and Ambrose). A class apart indeed. Anyways I'm not gonna take the bait and turn this into Marshall vs Mcgrath.

I'm guessing I shouldn't be surprised either that you use the most simplistic possible way of looking at stats to determine records. So do you believe that Marshall was barely half the bowler George Lohmann was or does Viv have something to counter that? In fact would you also mind asking him how Marshall being better to watch from the TV screen got his team wickets at a better rate than his average suggests?

Attacking me won't win you the argument. I just thought it would be interesting to look towards who ATG players think is the greatest fast bowler. The choice for them is between Lillee and Marshall. You can take it or leave it. When guys like Holding, Imran, Hadlee, Wasim talk about Marshall and Lillee, it does signify something.

Regarding Lohmann, I am going to go with Benchy's POV.

[Inferno]

Attacking me won't win you the argument. I just thought it would be interesting to look towards who ATG players think is the greatest fast bowler. The choice for them is between Lillee and Marshall. You can take it or leave it. When guys like Holding, Imran, Hadlee, Wasim talk about Marshall and Lillee, it does signify something.

Regarding Lohmann, I am going to go with Benchy's POV.

Just to get the "attacking" part clear, you get what you ask for. You trying to suggest my opinion somehow is not worth much because I'm no Viv was a personal jab. So yeah.

As far as the argument goes I don't have a problem with your opinion eveybody is entitled to one I'm not trying to change your mind here. I just simply disagree with it completely ad also gave you my opinion as to why I thought ex-players are just as biased as any other especially towards players that look good on the screen. You just decided to reply with a personal jab.

Also, one can't help but wonder as to why Lillie completely disappeared on your last argument.....

[Agent Nationaux]

No personal jab there. The guy played against the best in the world. His views are always going to be put above the rest of us. But you were calling me a simpleton just because I think his views along with the views of other ATG's are worth listening to.

And Lillee might not have the greatest of records, but a lot of people consider him their all time great bowler. I guess stats aren't everything.

[Inferno]

This debate is running out of fuel. You think player's opinion are meaningful if they have served the game and I say I don't see how that makes them any less bias. I'll just leave at that.

Edit: Pleasures of having the last word eh? I think you were taking a personal jab at me but hey I give up have your last words. This is the last I will ever mention it.

[Agent Nationaux]

This debate is running out of fuel. You think player's opinion are meaningful if they have served the game and I say I don't see how that makes them any less bias. I'll just leave at that.

And yet you call someone a simpleton for it. Cheers.

[Monk]

I consider Lillee the greatest of all time. And it's only marginal, but I consider him better than Marshall. The reason is complex, but stats don't really enter the debate. It has a lot to do with his aura and presence, which is not often discussed, but is a big factor, particularly with pace bowlers.

This is really all splitting hairs, I know, and it mostly comes down to personal preference. But in a school yard setting, if I'm the captain with first pick of all the ATG quicks, I'd take Lillee over Marshall (and everyone else) every time.

[Coronis]

I'd take McGrath personally, but thats just me.

[Jono]

It has a lot to do with his aura and presence, which is not often discussed, but is a big factor, particularly with pace bowlers.

It is tbf

[SJS]

I consider Lillee the greatest of all time. And it's only marginal, but I consider him better than Marshall. The reason is complex, but stats don't really enter the debate. It has a lot to do with his aura and presence, which is not often discussed, but is a big factor, particularly with pace bowlers.

This is really all splitting hairs, I know, and it mostly comes down to personal preference. But in a school yard setting, if I'm the captain with first pick of all the ATG quicks, I'd take Lillee over Marshall (and everyone else) every time.

I tend to feel about the same

[SJS]

By the way, why is Steyn not popular amongst young cricket fans ? I am amazed. People talk so much about old-foggies (meaning people like yours truly) never being able to appreciate the modern cricketer and infatuated with cricketers of their own youth and here is a really great fast bowler living in our times and we find it so difficult to be unreservedly appreciative and thankful for the opportunity of being able to see him perform before our own eyes.

He is a truly great bowler. . . take an old-foggy's word for it

[hendrix]

I never watched Marshall but his record and what I've heard others say about him and the youtube videos I've seen put him on top, for me.

Marshall>Ambrose=McGrath>the rest.

[Coronis]

By the way, why is Steyn not popular amongst young cricket fans ? I am amazed. People talk so much about old-foggies (meaning people like yours truly) never being able to appreciate the modern cricketer and infatuated with cricketers of their own youth and here is a really great fast bowler living in our times and we find it so difficult to be unreservedly appreciative and thankful for the opportunity of being able to see him perform before our own eyes.

He is a truly great bowler. . . take an old-foggy's word for it

I love Steyn, I don't understand why people hate on him so much.. Nostalgia, perhaps?

[Top_Cat]

By the way, why is Steyn not popular amongst young cricket fans ? I am amazed. People talk so much about old-foggies (meaning people like yours truly) never being able to appreciate the modern cricketer and infatuated with cricketers of their own youth and here is a really great fast bowler living in our times and we find it so difficult to be unreservedly appreciative and thankful for the opportunity of being able to see him perform before our own eyes.

He is a truly great bowler. . . take an old-foggy's word for it

Bingo.

[Monk]

By the way, why is Steyn not popular amongst young cricket fans ? I am amazed. People talk so much about old-foggies (meaning people like yours truly) never being able to appreciate the modern cricketer and infatuated with cricketers of their own youth and here is a really great fast bowler living in our times and we find it so difficult to be unreservedly appreciative and thankful for the opportunity of being able to see him perform before our own eyes.

He is a truly great bowler. . . take an old-foggy's word for it

Sometimes you don't appreciate how good something is til it's gone. Warne is a case in point for mine. Appreciated how good he was when he played, but it's not til you can't watch him anymore that you realise how awesome he was. I often watch the 2005 Ashes DVD just for his performance.

I'd say in 15 or 20 years people will be talking about Steyn in a similar way to the way we talk about Ambrose and Donald and Trueman and Lindwall now.