mendis and murali

[Zinzan]

FFS, of course there is. The point is nothing more than, as someone said, that it's far too early to be asking "will he be better than one of the best players we've ever seen". It's utterly silly.

FTR, my interest was distinctly piqued by him at the time he made his ODI debut and had several people raving instantly about him. But, relatively speaking, he's still been around 5 minutes. It is annoying people going completely OTT about players who make sensational starts to careers.

Yet you made the comparison with Smith and Patel.

 

[Richard]

No, I didn't. Not once did I make any comparison in the form of a prediction of a likelihood of a similar course of career being followed.

I merely gave a few names who'd had impressive starts to their Test careers. I could have given hundreds more. The point is that good starts to a Test career means not-all-that-much, and I'd guess this thread wouldn't have been made but for said start to Test career.

 

[irfan]

Personally, I find him very overrated. Hes had a good start to his test career, but I think a lot of it is due to over-caution and anxiety that the Indian batsmen have generated. For mine, even if you cant read him from the hand, its not like he turns the ball significantly. He takes the vast majority of his wickets bowling straight balls. Ive said earlier, and I will say it again, he needs to be played like a medium pacer that bowls off and leg cutters rather than as a spinner. I think if you cant pick him and play his deliveries as though they will go straight, you will have infinetly more success than if you play for the turn when you have no idea which way the ball is turning.

Erroneous. Mendis's standard off break turns big, he just uses it rarely and does more damage with all his other variations which deviate slightly either way.

 

[Migara]

Personally, I find him very overrated. Hes had a good start to his test career, but I think a lot of it is due to over-caution and anxiety that the Indian batsmen have generated. For mine, even if you cant read him from the hand, its not like he turns the ball significantly. He takes the vast majority of his wickets bowling straight balls. Ive said earlier, and I will say it again, he needs to be played like a medium pacer that bowls off and leg cutters rather than as a spinner. I think if you cant pick him and play his deliveries as though they will go straight, you will have infinetly more success than if you play for the turn when you have no idea which way the ball is turning.

One English cricketer said same about a certain Indian bowler. Then many followed his advice. But that bowler still beats batsmen in the air and off the pitch, and has taken 600 wickets. This medium pace business, is calling for a disaster.

 

[Tom Halsey]

One English cricketer said same about a certain Indian bowler. Then many followed his advice. But that bowler still beats batsmen in the air and off the pitch, and has taken 600 wickets. This medium pace business, is calling for a disaster.

Yes, but he's hardly been world-class, has he? He's been an extremely good bowler, but not an all time great.

 

[Richard]

One English cricketer said same about a certain Indian bowler. Then many followed his advice.

Indeed, Graham Gooch coming-up with the idea of playing Kumble as a non-spinning bowler. Michael Atherton took the advice and preached it to many others.

Interestingly, Gooch in 2005/06 spoke of the fact that matters had, finally, changed:

Originally Posted by Graham Gooch
England froze in Mohali because they realised they no longer can treat him as an incoming medium pacer.

But that bowler still beats batsmen in the air and off the pitch, and has taken 600 wickets. This medium pace business, is calling for a disaster.

Yes, but he's hardly been world-class, has he? He's been an extremely good bowler, but not an all time great.

Well, it depends. Kumble for much of his career was a phenomenal prospect on most home pitches and generally pretty straightforward to cope with away. Late in his career, he added to his repetoire and became a little more of a force to be reckoned with. But still not Warne\Murali-esque.

 

[Sanz]

Yes, but he's hardly been world-class, has he? He's been an extremely good bowler, but not an all time great.

Yeah he is not World Class. 600+ and counting and he is not world class.

 

[Jono]

Calling Mendis overrated will be the new 'in' thing to say in the next few months. Not saying its true or isn't true, but watch for it.

The only thing more 'cool' than a bandwagon are those spraying the bandwagon.

 

[Uppercut]

Yeah he is not World Class. 600+ and counting and he is not world class.

Jeez, well if you stick around long enough you'll inevitably get to 600.

The point is, the best spinners in the world during Kumble's career, Murali and Warne, were an indisputable class above him. Calling him world-class would imply that he's in the same class as those two, and he's not.

 

[Jono]

'World Class' and 'all-time great' are completely different terms IMO.

Kumble is a world class bowler. He's not an all-time-great. Shoaib Akhtar was a world class bowler, but not an all-time great. Brett Lee right now is a world class bowler, but far from an all-time great.

 

[Uppercut]

'World Class' and 'all-time great' are completely different terms IMO.

Kumble is a world class bowler. He's not an all-time-great. Shoaib Akhtar was a world class bowler, but not an all-time great. Brett Lee right now is a world class bowler, but far from an all-time great.

Perhaps, but right now you could call Lee world-class because he's obviously in the top tier of fast bowlers in the world. At no point in his career could you say that about Kumble, because there were always at least two spinners undeniably better than him.

 

[Jono]

That's a bit silly IMO.

Kumble happened to be a spinner in an era with two of the greatest spinners of all time. Who is Lee's competition right now? Steyn and that's about all.

You have to look at the bowler alone, and how he is bowling in a vacuum. Kumble up until the last 18 months was in the top 3-5 bowlers in the world. That made him a world class spinner, bowler, whatever. Just because Warne and Murali were better doesn't make him any less of a bowler, it makes them better.

For mine, Ambrose was always better than Pollock (until Ambrose was past it obviously), but that didn't mean Pollock wasn't a world class fast bowler.

 

[Uppercut]

Well IMO world-class is a word that implies comparison with the bowlers in the world at a given moment in time, a shorthand form of "one of the best in the world." I don't mean it to take away from him as a bowler. You could say something like, "had Kumble been playing in the 1980s, he would have been one of the best spinners in the world."

Bit tedious anyway. It was just a response to someone treating the concept of Kumble not being world-class as worthy of contempt.

 

[superkingdave]

One things for sure, Mendis will take a ****load of wickets next time SL play England

 

[tooextracool]

Erroneous. Mendis's standard off break turns big, he just uses it rarely and does more damage with all his other variations which deviate slightly either way.

Mendis' standard off break is just that, a standard offbreak. He bowls it with no discernable difference than any other finger spinner and I dont think he turns it any further either. The fact that some of his off breaks turned , gripped and bounced in the recently concluded test has more to do with the pitch than it does with his ability to turn the ball. Most of his other deliveries turn very little, no more than a seamer would generate from cutters and when you are bowling at 60mph or so its a lot easier to negotiate the movement than if someone was doing the same at 80mph. I like Mendis in the sense that he uses swing, seam movement and various other aspects that spinners dont usually use and he bowls wicket to wicket which follows the 'You miss i hit policy', but I do think that batsman would have much greater success if they were not playing for turn that isnt there and instead focused on playing the ball on its own merit.

 

[tooextracool]

One English cricketer said same about a certain Indian bowler. Then many followed his advice. But that bowler still beats batsmen in the air and off the pitch, and has taken 600 wickets. This medium pace business, is calling for a disaster.

True, but for a long while Kumble had a tough time reaping the success that he had in his early years. The medium pace business, believe it or not, worked successfully as batsman started to realize that he didnt turn the ball much and Kumble's 'rocket ball', the one that skidded on much like Mendis' 'carrom ball' went from being lethal to unthreatening. Kumble has obviously undergone various transformations since his earlier years, that is fairly obvious if you watched him earlier in his career as I did and he flights the ball far more and varies his pace more than he ever did earlier on when he bowled quicker and flatter. He also added a googly later on in his career, that has given him some serious success, largely because it turns more than his stock delivery.
The similarity between Mendis and Kumble is uncanny, although Mendis is far harder to pick and has many more variations. He too bowls flat and quick and doesnt give the ball much air. It works well for him now, but I am sure like Kumble he will have to make various adjustments in the future to maintain his success. However, lets be fair, Kumble has always been ordinary away from home.

 

[cricman]

One things for sure, Mendis will take a ****load of wickets next time SL play England

Not if Dan takes them 1st

 

[tooextracool]

Calling Mendis overrated will be the new 'in' thing to say in the next few months. Not saying its true or isn't true, but watch for it.

The only thing more 'cool' than a bandwagon are those spraying the bandwagon.

Its hardly a case of spraying the bandwagon. I have no problem getting on the bandwagon with regards to Lee or Steyn, but in Mendi's case its just too premature. It's almost like the case of Hick. Mendis hadnt even bowled a ball in test cricket and he was already sending shivers down the Indian batters mind. Hes played 2 tests and hes hyped up to surpass Murali. I do rate Mendis, but I dont think hes done enough to suggest that he will live up to such hype. Sehwag and Tendulkar are probably India's best players of spin and both of them have shown the ability to tackle Mendis

 

[morgieb]

Mendis won't be better than Murali, or Warne to a lesser extent.

 

[tooextracool]

Jeez, well if you stick around long enough you'll inevitably get to 600.

The point is, the best spinners in the world during Kumble's career, Murali and Warne, were an indisputable class above him. Calling him world-class would imply that he's in the same class as those two, and he's not.

Personally, Ive always thought that a player who could make it into almost every side in the world is world class. How many sides would not currently take Kumble? Arguably only SL would not at this point so IMO he is world class.