england's post ashes arrogance

[open365]

Pretty much agree with all of that. There does seem to be something in the English sporting make-up that means we're better at building towards great one-off achievements (see also Union World Cup) rather than sustained excellence over a long period. On the face of it there doesn't seem to be a great deal in common with the two teams: Woodward's England were ageing & certainly on the way down by the time we triumphed; Fletcher's looked to be a (comparatively) young team with more mileage in it. However both great triumphs have seen the rapid break up of the two respective teams.

Rapid break-up? Caused by injuries,nothing more.

This winter has been a terrific one for England, we may not have won anything, but it has shown us that we do have players capable of competeing in test matches and it will give the selectors a few head-aches.

I do not believe that the injuries are anything to worry about, Jones will come back fine(and probably get injured again but meh) Trescothick will get over his personal problems, Vaughan will get a prosthetic leg and return better than ever and Gilo..well...we have Panesar,he's alright...

 

[tooextracool]

now come on, i think you guys had have overreacted and are pretty much out of line, especially eddie. voltman, i've followed a lot of cricket since the ashes and i just feel that the english cricket team have just done nothing out of the ordinary in that time. lets face it. the only reason they managed to win the ashes was because the australians were out of sink at the time. i think had that series been played a year earlier england would have been beaten. having said other factors were different then, but Australia weren't at full strength. the end result is that we're now faced with this out of control bandwagon, that isn't going to cease to exist until some other english sporting team does something significant. perhaps, england winning the fifa world cup in a couple of months time would be a good thing afterall. then things will hopefully return to normal and all the bandwagon boys will go elsewhere

i'll speak on my part here. I couldnt care less if the Australian side was half fit or not. Following how many injuries we've had in the 2 ashes series before that, its definetly questionable whether either of those 2 series actually meant anything, because we were missing about half of our side or had players carrying injuries for both those series. and whether or not we deserved to win the last series or not, there was still no doubt that our bowlers caused significant problems for every single one of the fully fit in form Australian batting side and im certain that with Jones we have the best pace bowling attack i've seen in 15 years. and i think most people are willing to accept the fact that Australia are still the better side, unless we beat them at home this winter.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Being denied in the other? Granted they dominated days 2-4 of that match, but they never looked like bowling out India in the 2nd innings. In fact, in the last hour India were the only team who could realistically win the game.

Therefore they were denied by India's second innings batting, no?

The only thing that denied England a win was Dravid and Jaffer's bats.

And thanks for validating exactly what I was saying after disagreeing with it.

 

[Goughy]

i'll speak on my part here. I couldnt care less if the Australian side was half fit or not. Following how many injuries we've had in the 2 ashes series before that, its definetly questionable whether either of those 2 series actually meant anything, because we were missing about half of our side or had players carrying injuries for both those series. and whether or not we deserved to win the last series or not, there was still no doubt that our bowlers caused significant problems for every single one of the fully fit in form Australian batting side and im certain that with Jones we have the best pace bowling attack i've seen in 15 years. and i think most people are willing to accept the fact that Australia are still the better side, unless we beat them at home this winter.

Very good points. Injuries are part of the game and you can only beat the team put in front of you.

It is interesting how people are retropectively talking about Aussie weaknesses whereas the players are talking about creative captaincy and the best 4 pronged pace attack they have ever faced.

England won that series rather than the Aussies losing it. However, England must now build on it and the series against Pakistan is very important.

 

[age_master]

Mind that they were also missing Vaughan, Giles and Trescothick and serving under a first time captain.

wasn't that a good thing

 

[marc71178]

Gilo..well...we have Panesar,he's alright...

Panesar's alright?!

Remind us exactly of his final record in the India series - had Giles returned that sort of series he'd have been criticised by all and sundry.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

wasn't that a good thing

See what Marc said above. Giles has had the kind of success on the subcontinent in the past that would suggest he would probably have outbowled Panesar.

 

[nibbs]

I totally agree with you nibbs. England havn't backed up their Ashes performances and I also think they were playing an out of sink Australia.

thanks for believing in me natman. i knew someone was bound to have to courage to do so...

 

[luckyeddie]

thanks for believing in me natman. i knew someone was bound to have to courage to do so...

He's just you from another IP address - the one in the shearing shed.

It's good how you don't get your twin personas mubbled up though - sensible poster, silly poster.

 

[Natman20]

One person writing "sink" is amusing. Two fills me with fear about the quality of the New Zealand education system.

Sorry I was tired. S-Y-N-C-H

 

[Richard]

wasn't that a good thing

Err, no - past experience suggests Giles would have been quite a handful in the last 2 Tests - certainly more so than Panesar ever managed to be.

 

[Richard]

It's actually quite frightening how few of The Ashes XI were playing in the 3rd test in India. We might reasonably expect Tres & Harmy to be back firing on all cylinders soon, but there's no such guarantee with with Vaughan, Gilo or Jonah.

TBH - there was never any gurantee that "Jonah" was ever going to be firing on all cylinders again.
It's perfectly possible that his bowling in 2005 was just a one-off - we won't know until he actually bowls again.
Good to know the "injuries" excuse is already in waiting for the possibility of him bowling crap, though...

 

[Richard]

Whilst I agree with the sentiments that bragging-rights were earned for a while, to tell the truth it was a pretty feeble Australian performance with a few notable exceptions - nothing like the 'Greatest Aussie team ever' - rather a team that had grown weary and stale and, dare I say it - complacent and soft?

I'd say it had simply seen some players get found-out (Hayden, Clarke, Gilchrist, Lee, Tait), some suffer misfortune (McGrath, Martyn) and only 2 who could really be said to have underperformed (Katich, Gillespie) - neither of which I think really had anything to do with being any of weary, stale, complacent or soft.

 

[Son Of Coco]

TBH - there was never any gurantee that "Jonah" was ever going to be firing on all cylinders again.
It's perfectly possible that his bowling in 2005 was just a one-off - we won't know until he actually bowls again.
Good to know the "injuries" excuse is already in waiting for the possibility of him bowling crap, though...

Jones has always looked like a decent prospect when he's on the pitch for any length of time (which might only be once!). He was bowling well before he injured himself in the first ashes test out here in 2003 ( think it was!?) and looks like a very good bowler. Unfortunately, at the moment he also looks to be one of those people who can't stop getting injured.

 

[Richard]

Jones NEVER looked like a remotely good bowler on the field until summer 2004. He might've had the ability, but he certainly never demonstrated it in a game until that Lord's Test. For all the valid excuses his fans might have, that's fact nonetheless.
Indeed, it wasn't until the Second Test in 2005 that he started looking the finished product or even close to it.
And I'm still certainly not convinced until he bowls well in more than 1 series.

 

[Pothas]

Jones NEVER looked like a remotely good bowler on the field until summer 2004. He might've had the ability, but he certainly never demonstrated it in a game until that Lord's Test. For all the valid excuses his fans might have, that's fact nonetheless.
Indeed, it wasn't until the Second Test in 2005 that he started looking the finished product or even close to it.
And I'm still certainly not convinced until he bowls well in more than 1 series.

he was certainly a remotely good bowler when i saw him clean bowl Sachin Tendulkar for 12 at Lords in 2003

 

[Richard]

Could there be more incorrect information in that post?
Jones in 2003 was recovering from injury, it was 2002 that the series against India was played. Jones did not clean bowl Tendulkar at Lord's, he had him dropped at slip before he even actually got his first 2 (gifted) wickets - Ratra and Agarkar - after bowling the biggest heap of crap you could wish to see (debut or not - it was dreadful).
In the second-innings he did indeed get a clean-bowled but it was Sehwag, not Tendulkar (Sehwag scored 84 and 27; Tendulkar 16 and 12). The ball, incidentally, was a nothing ball - it was just a straight ball that Sehwag played the wrong line.
Tendulkar's 12, incidentally, was a bowled, but it wasn't a clean-bowled - it was just a routine leg-stump bad delivery that hit Tendulkar's pads and rebounded onto the stumps.

 

[marc71178]

If he got Agarkar out then he has to be an all-time legend anyway.

 

[Richard]

Naturally...
Of course, Harmison did the same next game... was a wicket that summed him up, too... lucky catch to third-man, he's had so many of those I've lost count.

 

[Goughy]

Naturally...
Of course, Harmison did the same next game... was a wicket that summed him up, too... lucky catch to third-man, he's had so many of those I've lost count.

Well maybe, if it happens enough you may recognise it as a skill.