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Thread: Were England lucky to win the Ashes in 2005 ? ?

  1. #1
    International Debutant Salamuddin's Avatar
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    Were England lucky to win the Ashes in 2005 ? ?

    I just watched the Ashes DVD again recently and it struck me that yeah
    lots of things did go England's way in the Ashes after the LOrds test.

    Mcgrath being injured obviously but also Gillespie's and Kasper's loss of form and the toss.
    Even the Aussie batsmen were below par although I do recognise some wonderful bowling on the part of the English which accounted for this.
    It was obvious Australia were desperate to bat first in light of difficulties confronting their three premier pace bowlers.
    But England won four tosses in a row and I do think it advantaged England to bat first given their strength was in bowling.

    What do you guys think ?

  2. #2
    International Debutant Natman20's Avatar
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    I think maybe its about time we moved on from the Ashes on focus on the now.

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    International Coach howardj's Avatar
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    They dominated at Edgbatston, Old Trafford and Trent Bridge. They didn't merely win two of those three Test Matches, but dominated them. So, in answer to your question, no.
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    Englishman BoyBrumby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salamuddin
    I just watched the Ashes DVD again recently and it struck me that yeah
    lots of things did go England's way in the Ashes after the LOrds test.

    Mcgrath being injured obviously but also Gillespie's and Kasper's loss of form and the toss.
    Even the Aussie batsmen were below par although I do recognise some wonderful bowling on the part of the English which accounted for this.
    It was obvious Australia were desperate to bat first in light of difficulties confronting their three premier pace bowlers.
    But England won four tosses in a row and I do think it advantaged England to bat first given their strength was in bowling.

    What do you guys think ?
    I don't think there's any doubt that we had the rub of the green at certain crucial times. For me the biggest break we caught was Buchanan scattering balls around on the floor!

    To be fair tho we didn't win four tosses in a row: Ponting made that disasterous call @ Edgbaston in the 2nd test to put us in & we then won the next 3. As for Dizzy & Kasper losing form, I think if you look at the 20/20 & the ODIs beforehand our batters had made a conscious decision to target them, Dizzy particularly.

    I think you'd have to be a pretty one-eyed Aussie to say we didn't deserve the win tho, especially when we were only Glen McGrath's wicket from winning the third test too.
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    Norwood's on Fire GIMH's Avatar
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    I think you'll find we won three tosses in a row, not four. Ponting's silly mistake was certainly another thing that went our way though, but luck? Sure we were lucky Pietersen was dropepd on the way to his magnificent 158, that McGrath wasn't himself due to injury, that Gillespie was a shadow of his former self etc, but I think the main piece of luck was that we finally had a bunch of talented players capable of beating the Aussies at the same time, and that Flintoff has emerged as cricket's #1 all-rounder

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    International Debutant Natman20's Avatar
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    A series loss to Pakistan thats got to say something and im sure that this Indian series will be close.

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    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend _Ed_'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by howardj
    They dominated at Edgbatston
    That test seemed pretty even to me.

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    International Coach howardj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeraintIsMyHero
    but I think the main piece of luck was that we finally had a bunch of talented players capable of beating the Aussies at the same time, and that Flintoff has emerged as cricket's #1 all-rounder
    Moreover, Pietersen, Flintoff, Vaughan, Strauss and Jones are strong personalities. It takes people of immense character - not just fine cricketers - to storm the fortress.

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    International Coach howardj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by _Ed_
    That test seemed pretty even to me.
    I reckon Australia dominated on day four, only. Granted, they hung in well, though.

  10. #10
    Englishman BoyBrumby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by howardj
    I reckon Australia dominated on day four, only. Granted, they hung in well, though.
    Morning of day 3 too; Lee bowled up a storm. Think we were six down at lunch.

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    Hall of Fame Member age_master's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoyBrumby
    I think you'd have to be a pretty one-eyed Aussie to say we didn't deserve the win tho, especially when we were only Glen McGrath's wicket from winning the third test too.

    and Australia were only Kaspa's wicket from winning the other one....


    England played better through the series and definatley deserved the win.
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    International Vice-Captain Dasa's Avatar
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    England had some luck. However, they weren't lucky to win the Ashes.

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    Yeah, hate to admit it, but England had plenty of luck. In fact I did a top 10 list of things that went wrong in the Ashes for the Aussies a while back.

    10. Losing the toss
    An odd reason for sure. I just thought it helped England. Vaughn himself always wanted to bat first in all tests because he believed on getting a good start with the bat led to putting Australia under pressure. It's amazing that Warne took 4 wickets in a short time at The Oval because that pitch was perfect for runs. Once England got 400 runs+ and got the ball swinging, Australia felt the pressure. I know they could have done that at the start and made runs... the reason I'm saying this was Vaughn made it completely known that he felt batting first was the best way to win. And he'll do it in Australia. I'd bet on that. It would have to be a bad pitch for him not to. think he liked to nullify Warne on e 4th innings wicket as well.

    9. Bad umpiring.
    Bowden was the usual colpret, as he usually is. But one moment stood out for me that involved Aleem Dar. 4th test and people need to give England credit, especially Simon Jones. They were swinging the ball all over the place. Clarke and Katich played the type of innings Australia should have played all series. Clarke takes one swipe at one ball he shouldn't, and goes out. But Katich stays in. Australia need at least a lead of 150 runs to defend and it looks like they might have an extremely small total to defend. One ball pitches about a foot outside of leg stump, hits Katich above the knee roll and Dar gives him out. Katich stayed later to look at the replay and got fined for showing dissent. It turns out another 25 runs might have made it interesting for the Aussies and given them a chance the way Warne was bowling. I hate talking about bad umpiring because it's such a good job. Umpire Sheppard was saying Warne was by far the hardest bowler he ever judges because it's hard to pick which deliveries he's bowling. Warne had Flintoff lbw at Edgbaston when that 10th wicket partnership was getting going and Freddie gets away with it. There were plenty of times Warne had lbw's that weren't given. To be honest, I hate saying this because people talk about bad umpiring all the time... I just thought it stood out in the Ashes more. More at stake I guess. A study later showed that England did get a nice runs of lbw decisions, while the Aussies were a bit unlucky. I'd rather say "it's a part of sport" than say "bad umpiring." That's just the way it goes... it just went England's way a bit more. If somebody says to me this shouldn't be a reason, I might be inclined to agree... bad umpiring happens to all teams.

    8. Ponting's captaincy.
    What a failure he was. I liked it how Botham was saying on Sky that it's all and well being a great captain when things are going good. But you measure a captain by judging him on tight situations. Ponting was brilliant at Old Trafford with the bat, as captain he held too many conferences and looked worried and uncertain. Warne looked confident and believing in Australia's chances... actually I'll stop there because I talked about the captaincy in another thread. The Aussies looked terrible under the pressure, and Ponting (the captain!) often looked the worst. It wa sonly at Old Trafford that he did the business and it was more as a batsman than captain.

    7. No MacGill
    6. No Hussey

    Weather you think MacGill is underrated or overrated or whatever, he's better than Tait and Englishmen like Strauss, Bell and Jones were having trouble with leg-spin. MacGill was an easy choice who got stuffed up because he had one bad domestic game. Boybott was shocked Hussey wasn't in the team, he was clearly handling the swinging ball the best in the ODI's. Simple choice. Boyott also said if Warne had one good bowler performing with him in the series, the Aussies would have won.

    5. No balls
    4. Dropped catches

    For me, one moment in the entire series summed up the luck of the Aussies. It was at Old Trafford and McGrath is bowling to Vaughn. Vaughn nicks the ball, balls goes to Gilchrist, Gilchrist drops it. Now I don't care if people think the Aussies have had series where they dropped plenty of catches, this was the wicket-keeper stuffing-up a simple catch. That's as bad as dropping five catches. Next ball McGrath knocks Vaughn's stumps over but it was a no-ball. Two consecutive balls that didn't go the Aussies way. Vaughn goes on and takes the game away from the Aussies. The Aussies were around 55 runs behind with one wicket when the game ended. I have to believe that if Vaughn didn't make a huge century, the Aussies could have been in a good position. After all he did, Warne dropping Pietersen at The Oval was the absolute killer.

    3. Jason Gilespie sucks?
    I have no idea what happened to Gilespie. All of a sudde, first few balls in England and all he can do is bowl wides. When he's not bowling wides, it's no balls. People don't know how great he is, any team in the history of cricket would love to have their third best bowler have an average of 26. Courtney Walsh himself once rated him the fourth best bowler in the world at a certain point.

    2. Adam Gilchrist struggles.
    Maybe I shouldn't say that because a great part of this had to do with Flintoff. But if you ask me, Flintoff's biggest contribution in the Ashes was bunnying Gilchrist. Gilchrist saved Australia at times against Pakistan and New Zealand in the previous series and just took games away in one session. While this has a great deal to do with Flintoff, Gilchrist did look uncertain at which balls to go after, which he never used to be like. When he went back to his home country and lpayed Flintoff, he made a century in one ODI and 94 in the super test. The point is, Gilchrist didn't fire when it mattered most and just one of those innings might have been enough.

    1. Glenn McGrath hurting himself.
    Easy number one pick. A study I did shows him as having a better peak from Perth to Lords than Hadlee ever did in his career. If you ask me, McGrath hasn't been the same since.


    Personally, I'm a believer that you play how you play, no excuses attached. England were the better team and you can't say "oh we didn't perform" when you had a chance to perform. England were the better team and deserved the Ashes... especially considering the pressure they put the Aussies under. If the question becomes "if the Aussies played to their full potential with luck going their way, and England did too..." then the Aussies would win. But that means nothing because they had their chance and stuffed it up. The Ashes rightfully belong to England. So yeah the Aussies clearly had back luck, McGrath being the worst. But England stood up and deserved it.

    And people should never NEVER stop talking about the Ashes. Great series.

  14. #14
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    Insted of babbling in that last paragraph, I should have just said this...

    England had some luck. However, they weren't lucky to win the Ashes.

    That sums it up from the lad above me.

  15. #15
    Eyes not spreadsheets marc71178's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salamuddin
    But England won four tosses in a row
    That on it's own is an inaccuracy.
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