The better batsman the bettter #3 Ponting vs Dravid

[Sanz]

Stop advicing me. Because you look far worse doing the same.

Where did I give you any advice ? I remember that you had put me on your Ignore list in the past. Since I didn't want to go through the whole process again (since you have the habot of nit picking) I asked for a FAVOR.

I hope you know the difference between a favor and an advice.

 

[Pratters]

Where did I give you any advice ? I remember that you had put me on your Ignore list in the past. Since I didn't want to go through the whole process again (since you have the habot of nit picking) I asked for a FAVOR.

I hope you know the difference between a favor and an advice.

haha look who is NIT PICKING.

 

[Sanz]

Actually its more than a specific ball or a few balls.

Its a series and a half.

Yeah Right !!! 9, 39, 25,180,81,4 is a series and a half. 2 out of 6 innings is a series and half.

 

[Sanz]

haha look who is NIT PICKING.

YOU.

 

[Pratters]

Series where Dravid had success versus Warne - the series where Australia toured India (already stated)
Border-Gavaskar Trophy (Aus/Ind) in India, 1997/98 [Series]
Ind 3 5 0 223 86 56 52 44.60 0 3 0

Second series where he was a success in two tests - When they toured subsequently - Dravid hit 180 in a test and 81 in another.

Now that of course is struggling against Warne. I am not going to get into a sleazy internet blame game with a guy who starts objecting to a point being raised and tells me to get into a mosquito net as a result of it.

Going for stupid outlandish statements rather than debating stuff is not the way I like to go about things.

 

[adharcric]

YOU.

and both of you, get back to cricket ...

 

[Burpey]

A word if I may. I'm not going to name names here, but I would like to say something. Debate is a great thing, but when it starts getting personal it is just ridiculous.

 

[Tom Halsey]

No, last two years is irrelevant to the whole careers.

Of course it is.

If you read what I said, it is relevant to how good they are now. And Ponting wins by a long way.

 

[Tom Halsey]

Ponting barely averages 30 in IND/PAK/SL. That is quite pathetic. Maybe if he had played much quality spin on Sydney, it would've made a better read of his abilities in Sydney.

Check your figures:

Actually he averages 38.7 http://statserver.cricket.org/guru?...elds= viewtype

Also the following show he can play quality spin -

http://www.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/...-07OCT2002.html

http://www.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/...-23OCT2002.html

http://www.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/...-28MAR2004.html

He has other good scores like 96, 76*, 92 etc as well.

 

[Tom Halsey]

Come on. South Africa has two good bowlers and one of them isn't playing this test. A pressure hundred is having to face McGrath, Warne and Gillespie after your team has followed on and is in danger of losing the series.

A pressure innings is also what he played at Old Trafford in the 3rd Ashes Test to save it and under the circumstances that was one of the best innings I've seen, and better than anything I've seen from Dravid, and you can't say it was not a quality attack.

 

[Jono]

You can add Kallis to that ever changing list too. Interesting how hes suddenly God on the forums.

When Dravid was kicking butt over here in Australia a few years ago, many Australian CW posters and general cricket fans started rating him and claiming he's one of the best. Same goes for Inzy vs. England. These batsman were great players before that. Oddly though Kallis hasn't received quite that treatment as you implied. Whilst Kallis has just made a ton against Australia and is receiving praise, its actually 50/50. Some are rating him highly, others are criticising his slow rate. *shrugs*

Even better examples are Ramdin and Bravo, who are all of a sudden young champions. Don't get me wrong, because when you see performances like that you're entitled to rate them very highly and see them as very promising. But performances against one's own country or on TV which you happen to watch doesn't make that player the best in the world. Cricket goes on in other parts of the world too. I mean I bet many people who have replied to this post haven't seen any of Dravid (perhaps other than the Super Series) in 2005. He played against Pakistan and SL, but his performances there might not have been seen. Whereas say some Australian and English fans would have witnessed Ponting be in absolutely superb form against WI & SA, and then when you think they would have seen him in all 5 Ashes tests, its just natural for one to think that what they see recently (or what they see at all) is what is best.

Hell in some argument regarding Warne vs. Murali some people admitted to not seeing much of Murali other than the Super Test. I mean really, its not their fault if one doesn't have access to pay TV or whatever, but it doesn't exactly put you in a position to judge who is a better player in a debate.

 

[howardj]

I think what this thread demonstrates is that even the best batsmen all have anomalies/ weak points/ black marks somewhere their statistical resum'es. Doesnt mean they're not fantastic players though, just that cricket is a damn hard game and that each great batsman is likely to have one or two skeletons in the closet.

 

[Jono]

And Ponting wins by a long way.

What? They've both been superb lately, and hell they both averaged 100+ to my knowledge in 2003. Recently they've been pretty par, even if one averages more than another.

A pressure innings is also what he played at Old Trafford in the 3rd Ashes Test to save it and under the circumstances that was one of the best innings I've seen, and better than anything I've seen from Dravid, and you can't say it was not a quality attack.

Yeah but, and be honest, how much have you actualyl seen of Dravid? No one is denying that was a brilliant knock because it was one of the best I'd seen and I voted it best of 2005. But going on my initial point, when's the last time you've seen Dravid bat (not including Super Series)?

 

[Pratters]

I think what this thread demonstrates is that even the best batsmen all have anomalies/ weak points/ black marks somewhere their statistical resum'es. Doesnt mean they're not fantastic players though, just that cricket is a damn hard game and that each great batsman is likely to have one or two skeletons in the closet.

Yep and it has to be judged whether the statistical anamolies point to some thing or are just there.

It has been claimed -

Dravid is poor against quality spin
Ponting is poor against quality spin

Now both have shown they can handle quality spin at various points of their careers.

It is amazing how tough it is to separate the two - both are such good players - shown by their records.

 

[marc71178]

You can add Kallis to that ever changing list too. Interesting how hes suddenly God on the forums.

To a lot of people he's been rated very highly as a batsman for a long time.

 

[Craig]

I'm interested to know in the eyes of CC, is there anybody actually good in the Australian team compared to that of those in the Indian team?

His view is hardly surprising.

 

[Tom Halsey]

1) What? They've both been superb lately, and hell they both averaged 100+ to my knowledge in 2003. Recently they've been pretty par, even if one averages more than another.

2) Yeah but, and be honest, how much have you actualyl seen of Dravid? No one is denying that was a brilliant knock because it was one of the best I'd seen and I voted it best of 2005. But going on my initial point, when's the last time you've seen Dravid bat (not including Super Series)?

1) There's 6 runs difference in their averages in the last two years. Considering India generally has flatter pitches than Australia too (seam-wise) Ponting wins quite easily.

2) Every india series that's televised over here - all series involving England, Australia versus India, and India - Pakistan series. I've seen him quite a bit.

 

[Jono]

Considering India generally has flatter pitches than Australia too (seam-wise) Ponting wins quite easily.

Seam-wise yes, but considering match referee Clive Lloyd (wrongly of course but doesn't change the fact) in the recent Ind v SL test series reported Indian pitches to the ICC for being too bowler friendly, in particular to spinners, I think its a silly assumption to believe that runs scored on Australian wickets are easier than on Indian wickets.

 

[Pratters]

Dravid is the one who has the better average in the last two years. nearly 59 vs 56 of Ponting. Just for comparison's sake -

Ponting
Dravid

Mat    I  NO  Runs HS1  HS2  HS3     Ave 100  50   0

unfiltered            99  164  22  7990 257  242  207   56.26  26  32   8
                      94  158  18  8003 270  233  222   57.16  20  39   6
filtered              25   47   7  2241 207  156  149   56.02   6  11   1
                      20   30   3  1586 270  160  135   58.74   4   8   4

v Australia            0    -   -     -   -    -    -     -     -   -   -
                       6   11   2   319  91*  60   38   35.44   0   2   2
v Bangladesh           0    -   -     -   -    -    -     -     -   -   -
                       2    2   0   160 160    0    -   80.00   1   0   1
v England              5    9   0   359 156   61   48   39.88   1   1   1
                       0    -   -     -   -    -    -     -     -   -   -
v ICC World XI         1    2   0   100  54   46    -   50.00   0   1   0
                       0    -   -     -   -    -    -     -     -   -   -
v India                2    4   0    95  47   25   12   23.75   0   0   0
                       0    -   -     -   -    -    -     -     -   -   -
v New Zealand          5    8   3   438 105   86*  68   87.60   1   3   0
                       0    -   -     -   -    -    -     -     -   -   -
v Pakistan             3    6   2   403 207   98   62* 100.75   1   2   0
                       6    9   0   642 270  135  110   71.33   3   1   1
v South Africa         2    4   0   252 117   71   53   63.00   1   2   0
                       2    3   1   181  80   54   47*  90.50   0   2   0
v Sri Lanka            4    8   0   265  92   45   28   33.12   0   1   0
                       2    3   0   109  53   32   24   36.33   0   1   0
v West Indies          3    6   2   329 149  104*  56   82.25   2   1   0
                       0    -   -     -   -    -    -     -     -   -   -
v Zimbabwe             0    -   -     -   -    -    -     -     -   -   -
                       2    2   0   175  98   77    -   87.50   0   2   0

in Australia          13   25   5  1368 207  149  117   68.40   4   8   0
                       2    4   1   152  91*  38   23   50.66   0   1   1
in Bangladesh          0    -   -     -   -    -    -     -     -   -   -
                       2    2   0   160 160    0    -   80.00   1   0   1
in England             5    9   0   359 156   61   48   39.88   1   1   1
                       0    -   -     -   -    -    -     -     -   -   -
in India               1    2   0    23  12   11    -   11.50   0   0   0
                      11   18   2   790 135  110   80   49.37   2   5   1
in New Zealand         3    5   2   293 105   86*  47*  97.66   1   1   0
                       0    -   -     -   -    -    -     -     -   -   -
in Pakistan            0    -   -     -   -    -    -     -     -   -   -
                       3    4   0   309 270   33    6   77.25   1   0   1
in Sri Lanka           3    6   0   198  92   28   27   33.00   0   1   0
                       0    -   -     -   -    -    -     -     -   -   -
in Zimbabwe            0    -   -     -   -    -    -     -     -   -   -
                       2    2   0   175  98   77    -   87.50   0   2   0

in Africa              0    -   -     -   -    -    -     -     -   -   -
                       2    2   0   175  98   77    -   87.50   0   2   0
in Asia                4    8   0   221  92   28   27   27.62   0   1   0
                      16   24   2  1259 270  160  135   57.22   4   5   3
in Europe              5    9   0   359 156   61   48   39.88   1   1   1
                       0    -   -     -   -    -    -     -     -   -   -
in Oceania            16   30   7  1661 207  149  117   72.21   5   9   0
                       2    4   1   152  91*  38   23   50.66   0   1   1

home                  13   25   5  1368 207  149  117   68.40   4   8   0
                      11   18   2   790 135  110   80   49.37   2   5   1
away                  12   22   2   873 156  105   92   43.65   2   3   1
                       9   12   1   796 270  160   98   72.36   2   3   3

2004                  10   19   2   697  98   92   68   41.00   0   5   0
                      12   18   3   946 270  160   91*  63.06   2   4   3
2005                  15   28   5  1544 207  156  149   67.13   6   6   1
                       8   12   0   640 135  110   98   53.33   2   4   1

season 2003/04         4    8   0   270  92   47   28   33.75   0   1   0
                       4    6   1   438 270   91*  38   87.60   1   1   1
season 2004            1    2   0    67  45   22    -   33.50   0   0   0
                       0    -   -     -   -    -    -     -     -   -   -
season 2004/05         9   16   5   864 207  105   98   78.54   2   5   0
                      11   17   2   841 160  135  110   56.06   3   4   2
season 2005            5    9   0   359 156   61   48   39.88   1   1   1
                       0    -   -     -   -    -    -     -     -   -   -
season 2005/06         6   12   2   681 149  117  104*  68.10   3   4   0
                       5    7   0   307  98   77   53   43.85   0   3   1

as captain            24   45   7  2169 207  156  149   57.07   6  11   1
                       6   10   1   229  53   33   32   25.44   0   1   1
not as captain         1    2   0    72  47   25    -   36.00   0   0   0
                      14   20   2  1357 270  160  135   75.38   4   7   3

toss won              10   20   2   849 117   92   71   47.16   1   6   1
                      12   17   2  1158 270  160  135   77.20   4   4   2
toss lost             15   27   5  1392 207  156  149   63.27   5   5   0
                       8   13   1   428  80   77   60   35.66   0   4   2

toss won & batted      8   16   1   695 117   92   71   46.33   1   5   0
                       8   13   2   740 160  135  110   67.27   3   2   1
toss won & fielded     2    4   1   154  61   47*  46   51.33   0   1   1
                       4    4   0   418 270   98   50  104.50   1   2   1
toss lost & sent in    4    7   1   452 149  104*  98   75.33   2   1   0
                       0    -   -     -   -    -    -     -     -   -   -
toss lost & fielded   11   20   4   940 207  156  105   58.75   3   4   0
                       8   13   1   428  80   77   60   35.66   0   4   2

matches batting 1st   12   23   2  1147 149  117  104*  54.61   3   6   0
                       8   13   2   740 160  135  110   67.27   3   2   1
matches fielding 1st  13   24   5  1094 207  156  105   57.57   3   5   1
                      12   17   1   846 270   98   80   52.87   1   6   3

1st team innings      25   25   0  1268 207  149  117   50.72   4   6   0
                      20   20   1  1132 270  160  110   59.57   3   5   3
2nd team innings      23   22   7   973 156  104*  98   64.86   2   5   1
                      13   10   2   454 135   91*  60   56.75   1   3   1

1st match innings     12   12   0   639 149  117   92   53.25   2   3   0
                       8    8   1   434 160  110   38   62.00   2   0   0
2nd match innings     13   13   0   629 207  105   61   48.38   2   3   0
                      12   12   0   698 270   98   80   58.16   1   5   3
3rd match innings     12   12   2   556 104*  98   54   55.60   1   3   0
                       5    5   1   306 135   91*  53   76.50   1   2   1
4th match innings     11   10   5   417 156   86*  62*  83.40   1   2   1
                       8    5   1   148  60   47*  23   37.00   0   1   0

no follow-on          23   44   7  2183 207  156  149   59.00   6  11   1
                      18   28   3  1420 270  135  110   56.80   3   8   4
enforcing a follow-on  1    1   0     9   9    -    -    9.00   0   0   0
                       2    2   0   166 160    6    -   83.00   1   0   0
in team following on   1    2   0    49  48    1    -   24.50   0   0   0
                       0    -   -     -   -    -    -     -     -   -   -

Opening                0    -   -     -   -    -    -     -     -   -   -
                       1    1   0    24  24    -    -   24.00   0   0   0
3rd position          25   45   7  2161 207  156  149   56.86   6  10   1
                      18   26   3  1456 270  160  135   63.30   4   7   4
4th position           1    1   0    53  53    -    -   53.00   0   1   0
                       1    1   0    26  26    -    -   26.00   0   0   0
5th position           0    -   -     -   -    -    -     -     -   -   -
                       2    2   0    80  53   27    -   40.00   0   1   0
6th position           1    1   0    27  27    -    -   27.00   0   0   0
                       0    -   -     -   -    -    -     -     -   -   -

bowled                 3    3   0   249 207   25   17   83.00   1   0   0   4%
                       7    7   0   476 270   98   80   68.00   1   2   2   9%
caught                18   24   0  1206 156  149  117   50.25   4   5   1  31%
                      13   15   0   768 160  135  110   51.20   3   3   1  19%
lbw                    8    8   0   194  71   56   25   24.25   0   2   0  10%
                       3    3   0   120  60   38   22   40.00   0   1   0   4%
run out                2    2   0    76  48   28    -   38.00   0   0   0   3%
                       2    2   0    53  53    0    -   26.50   0   1   1   3%
stumped                3    3   0   187  98   68   21   62.33   0   2   0   4%
                       0    -   -     -   -    -    -     -     -   -   -   0%
not out                7    7   7   329 104*  86*  62*    -     1   2   0   9%
                       3    3   3   169  91*  47*  31*    -     0   1   0   4%

dismissed             25   40   0  1912 207  156  149   47.80   5   9   1
                      20   27   0  1417 270  160  135   52.48   4   7   4
not dismissed          7    7   7   329 104*  86*  62*    -     1   2   0
                       3    3   3   169  91*  47*  31*    -     0   1   0

matches won           16   31   7  1638 207  149  117   68.25   5   8   0
                      10   14   2  1118 270  160  135   93.16   4   4   1
matches drawn          6   10   0   470 156   71   53   47.00   1   2   0
                       5    6   1   291  91*  54   50   58.20   0   3   0
matches lost           3    6   0   133  61   48   12   22.16   0   1   1
                       5   10   0   177  60   33   23   17.70   0   1   3

won by an innings      1    1   0    51  51    -    -   51.00   0   1   0
                       5    5   0   513 270  160   77  102.60   2   1   1
won defending target   9   18   2   947 149  117  104*  59.18   3   4   0
                       3    6   1   380 135  110   53   76.00   2   1   0
won chasing target     6   12   5   640 207  105   86*  91.42   2   3   0
                       2    3   1   225  98   80   47* 112.50   0   2   0
lost defending targ.   2    4   0    84  61   12   11   21.00   0   1   1
                       4    8   0   144  60   23   22   18.00   0   1   2
lost chasing target    1    2   0    49  48    1    -   24.50   0   0   0
                       1    2   0    33  33    0    -   16.50   0   0   1

5 day matches         24   45   7  2141 207  156  149   56.34   6  10   1
                      19   28   3  1563 270  160  135   62.52   4   8   3
6 day matches          1    2   0   100  54   46    -   50.00   0   1   0
                       1    2   0    23  23    0    -   11.50   0   0   1

1st/Only Tests         8   15   2   844 149  104*  98   64.92   2   5   0
                       8   10   0   302  77   60   54   30.20   0   4   3
2nd Tests              8   15   3   482 117   68   62*  40.16   1   3   1
                       7   11   1   766 160  135  110   76.60   3   3   1
3rd Tests              5   10   2   736 207  156  105   92.00   3   3   0
                       3    5   0   331 270   22   21   66.20   1   0   0
4th Tests              3    6   0   144  48   47   25   24.00   0   0   0
                       2    4   2   187  91*  38   31*  93.50   0   1   0
5th Tests              1    1   0    35  35    -    -   35.00   0   0   0
                       0    -   -     -   -    -    -     -     -   -   -

in series drawn        1    2   0    72  47   25    -   36.00   0   0   0
                       4    7   1   462 135  110   91*  77.00   2   2   0
in series won         17   32   7  1558 207  149  105   62.32   4   8   0
                      11   14   1   934 270  160   98   71.84   2   5   2
in series lost         5    9   0   359 156   61   48   39.88   1   1   1
                       5    9   1   190  60   31*  27   23.75   0   1   2
in series leads        2    4   0   252 117   71   53   63.00   1   2   0
                       0    -   -     -   -    -    -     -     -   -   -

Vs Australia Dravid's average has been 35. But Ponting is lucky not to have faced Australia.

Dravid averages 80 vs Bangladesh in 2 innings. Ponting hasnt faced them.

Dravid meanwhile hasnt faced England.

Dravid encashes on Zimbabwe while Ponting does not play them.

Dravid has the better average vs South Africa while Ponting has the better average vs Pakistan. The inning of Ponting in this match would mean his average vs South Africa will improve and that just shows how variable a 2 year analysis is.

Ponting has encashed on Windies while Dravid hasnt played them.

Both have performed poorly versus Sri Lanka.

 

[Dasa]

1) There's 6 runs difference in their averages in the last two years. Considering India generally has flatter pitches than Australia too (seam-wise) Ponting wins quite easily.

That's a myth...there's an assumption that unless a pitch is good for seamers (which a few Indian pitches are these days anyway) it's flat...Indian pitches are probably harder to do well on than Australia. Australia pitches these days (with the exception of the current series) are extremely flat, which is a another reason why Australia have been so dominant...Warne and McGrath (particularly McGrath) are two of the best on pitches that offer little assistance.