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Botham vs Flintoff

social

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Whilst immensely talented, Flintoff is more of a "manufactured" player than Botham.

Flintoff's bowling and batting techniques have changed considerably since his test debut.

His bowling used to be characterised by a stuttering run-up that could best be described as "useless" followed by a strong action. He could probably have bowled just as quickly off 6 paces.

He is now relatively smooth and, as a result, generates good pace and is accurate. IMO, he is England's best bowler but still not the match-winner that Botham was at his peak.

He is obviously working hard on his batting as his footwork has improved markedly of late. When coupled with his striking ability, he's a force to be reckoned with but still suffers from brain explosions. He is yet to engender the same type of anxiety that Botham created in opposition teams by his mere presence at the crease.

If anything, his bowling is far more mature than his batting.

Botham, on the other hand, entered test cricket mentally equipped for success.

Few rated him when he made his debut but he immediately made everyone sit up and take notice.

Botham's technique did not change markedly during his career.

He always had a fluid action and run-up that produced, when fit, genuinely quick deliveries that swung like boomerangs.

He was less concerned with economy than wickets and, as a result, bowled unplayable deliveries and crap in almost equal measure. Some on this forum would describe his bowling as "rubbish" but he was a genuine match-winner.

It was unfortunate that he suffered injuries later in his career that left his bowling a shadow of its former self.

His batting remained the same throughout his career - shuffle into line and give it heaps.

He played a couple of the greatest innings in test history.

On the evidence to date, Botham was mentally stronger than Flintoff at similar stages of their careers. He rose to most challenges, imposed himself upon the opposition with his mental and physical approach, and resisited the temptation to tamper too much with his game.

That being said, Flintoff has all the tools to carve out a career that supersedes Botham's statistically. Whether he can "legitimately", i.e. not as a result of media hype, ever fill his shoes is another question.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
i saw after freddie has retired form international cricket we can make an even better comparison of these two talented English all-rounders
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
SpeedKing said:
How can you judge someone so conclusively on clips that you see. if i compiled all of Freddie's better innings, some might think that he is the best batsman in thew world
i didn't basically judge on the clips i saw, also on what i heard people say about Beefy's batting
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
zinzan12 said:
If we are talking test cricket there is no comparison !!

Botham is one of the greats of all time. Flintoff isn't even one of the great test players of his era yet.

Yet another "overhyped" Freddie Thread - What a suprise - yawn yawn
well at stage of freddie's test career a comparison cant be made, but whats makes this a overhyped Freddie Thread :huh:
 

Zinzan

Request Your Custom Title Now!
aussie said:
well at stage of freddie's test career a comparison cant be made, but whats makes this a overhyped Freddie Thread :huh:
You've already spelled out that answer yourself ....there is no comparison
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Scaly piscine said:
I'm sure the 'video' was just highlights of all the times he came off. He most certainly was hit and miss.

Botham's batting average is higher by 1.1 runs, however Flintoff's average is still dragged down significantly by his early crapness when he shouldn't have been picked - I'll be surprised if he doesn't average near 40 by the end of his career, Flintoff also scores more quickly.
And Botham's average is dragged down by his later crapness. 8-)
Botham in his first 104 innings averaged 37.36; last 57 produced 26.40
Still managed to do far, far better than Flintoff (12.95 in the first 20; 19.48 in 33) in his crap days, of course.
 

Jono

Virat Kohli (c)
Richard said:
And Botham's average is dragged down by his later crapness. 8-)
Botham in his first 104 innings averaged 37.36; last 57 produced 26.40
Still managed to do far, far better than Flintoff (12.95 in the first 20; 19.48 in 33) in his crap days, of course.
Good post.

If you remove Flintoff's 'crapness', than you can do that for Botham. Its a ridiculous argument when people just remove a chunk of Flintoff's career. No doubt he's been brilliant lately, but you can't just remove some of his career when judging how good a player he has been. You can only do it to judge how he's currently playing.
 

Scaly piscine

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Jono said:
Good post.

If you remove Flintoff's 'crapness', than you can do that for Botham. Its a ridiculous argument when people just remove a chunk of Flintoff's career. No doubt he's been brilliant lately, but you can't just remove some of his career when judging how good a player he has been. You can only do it to judge how he's currently playing.
I didn't remove Flintoff's 'crapness' - the whole point was as Flintoff plays more Tests the effect his early scores will have on his batting average diminishes. This is why Flintoff will almost inevitably overtake Botham's batting average and will possibly go on to average 40 or more. Which should be conclusive enough for anyone to say Flintoff is the better batsman
 

FaaipDeOiad

Hall of Fame Member
Scaly piscine said:
I didn't remove Flintoff's 'crapness' - the whole point was as Flintoff plays more Tests the effect his early scores will have on his batting average diminishes. This is why Flintoff will almost inevitably overtake Botham's batting average and will possibly go on to average 40 or more. Which should be conclusive enough for anyone to say Flintoff is the better batsman
Err, what makes you so sure he will go on to average 40 or more? Botham certainly had the capability and showed it by playing some of the greatest ever test innings (something I can't see Flintoff doing), and averaged over 40 in parts of his career, but not in the whole. Flintoff won't average over 40 for a while, even with the way he has been going lately.

Also, why would it definitively say he was a better batsman? Imran Khan averaged close to 40, but never had the sort of impact with the bat that Botham did. The standard of bowling and difficulty of pitches in Botham's time was also far higher.
 

badgerhair

U19 Vice-Captain
FaaipDeOiad said:
Err, what makes you so sure he will go on to average 40 or more? Botham certainly had the capability and showed it by playing some of the greatest ever test innings (something I can't see Flintoff doing),
I don't quite understand that comment. It can't really be on the basis of batting ability: Flintoff's 142 at Lord's against SA was technically more accomplished and employed more recognised cricket shots than Botham's inspired slogging for 149* at Headingley, although it must be conceded that the situation at Lord's was much worse and the chances of setting even a modest target virtually nil so there was probably less at stake.

I can only assume that it is a comment on the relative strengths of the batting orders ahead of them. Botham usually batted behind a very fragile top order and regularly came in with the situation unpromising and therefore had plenty of opportunities to play fantasticallt memorable innings. Flintoff doesn't seem to get as many, and with any luck will have even fewer.

Cheers,

Mike
 

FaaipDeOiad

Hall of Fame Member
badgerhair said:
I don't quite understand that comment. It can't really be on the basis of batting ability: Flintoff's 142 at Lord's against SA was technically more accomplished and employed more recognised cricket shots than Botham's inspired slogging for 149* at Headingley, although it must be conceded that the situation at Lord's was much worse and the chances of setting even a modest target virtually nil so there was probably less at stake.

I can only assume that it is a comment on the relative strengths of the batting orders ahead of them. Botham usually batted behind a very fragile top order and regularly came in with the situation unpromising and therefore had plenty of opportunities to play fantasticallt memorable innings. Flintoff doesn't seem to get as many, and with any luck will have even fewer.

Cheers,

Mike
I was speaking purely about Botham, and saying that he, too, had the capability to average over 40 in test cricket. Given that he did in fact average over 40 for his first 25 tests, and the fact that he scored 14 test centuries, some of them in astonishingly unlikely situations on difficult wickets against good bowling, he clearly did have this ability.
 

Scaly piscine

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Botham was more agricultural in his approach to batting, he was never going to sustain an average of 40 over a long career. Flintoff however plays far more proper shots and can sustain an average of 40 or so far longer, the only thing that really works against this is his occasional stupidity and what he'll be like in Asia.
 

Swervy

International Captain
Scaly piscine said:
Botham was more agricultural in his approach to batting, he was never going to sustain an average of 40 over a long career. Flintoff however plays far more proper shots and can sustain an average of 40 or so far longer, the only thing that really works against this is his occasional stupidity and what he'll be like in Asia.
botham played just as 'classically' as the next man
 

LongHopCassidy

International Captain
badgerhair said:
although it must be conceded that the situation at Lord's was much worse and the chances of setting even a modest target virtually nil
At Headingley, England were 135/7 and still 92 behind. I'd think those chances were "virtually nil" as well.

Cheers,

Tim
 

FaaipDeOiad

Hall of Fame Member
LongHopCassidy said:
At Headingley, England were 135/7 and still 92 behind. I'd think those chances were "virtually nil" as well.
I think maybe he meant there was a concievable chance of victory at Headingly because England eventually did win, while at Lords they were nearly 500 behind on the first innings.

Cheers,

Sean
 

LongHopCassidy

International Captain
FaaipDeOiad said:
I think maybe he meant there was a concievable chance of victory at Headingly because England eventually did win, while at Lords they were nearly 500 behind on the first innings.

Cheers,

Sean
So? The odds of the Botham 149 and Willis 8/43 would surely be on a par with a Vaughan second-innings 300 and Flintoff cleaning up the South Africans.

Cheers,

Tim
 

FaaipDeOiad

Hall of Fame Member
LongHopCassidy said:
So? The odds of the Botham 149 and Willis 8/43 would surely be on a par with a Vaughan second-innings 300 and Flintoff cleaning up the South Africans.

Cheers,

Tim
Fair enough. I'd suggest both were exceedingly unlikely, though perhaps when Flintoff came in victory was even less likely, given that 5 wickets had already gone down, just like in Botham's case, but the deficit was still over 300, while in Botham's case it was less than half that.

Cheers,

Sean
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Jono said:
Good post.

If you remove Flintoff's 'crapness', than you can do that for Botham. Its a ridiculous argument when people just remove a chunk of Flintoff's career. No doubt he's been brilliant lately, but you can't just remove some of his career when judging how good a player he has been. You can only do it to judge how he's currently playing.
Well it's not ridiculous to split them up, it's just ridiculous to say "his early crapness doesn't matter" or similar.
Fact is, he was utterly useless up to 2003, and since 2003 he's been far, far better. Still, though, it reads home 57, away 31.66 (first-chance away 25.79) since 2003.
Likewise, for Botham he was clearly a very fine batsman up to the middle of winter 1983\84 and not very good from then on. So it's best to split them up and compare.
Botham's crap period was undisputably better than Flintoff's crap period where he played a sum-total of 1 match-influencing innings out of 33; as has been said, even 1984-onwards, Botham still played a few.
And to date Botham 1977-1983\84 has still achieved far, far more than Flintoff 2003-2005 has, even if his average isn't as high.
 

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