**.....UNOFFICIAL.....** ASHES 2007 thread

[Top_Cat]

Does it reverse around alarmingly in Australian conditions? I've never seen it for prolonged periods, but then again I haven't seen practitioners of the art doing it in Australia.

Nope. Two reasons; the balls we used aren't hand-made with huge seams like Dukes are so there's less swing automatically. Two, we don't have the same weather conditions to help the process. It's rare to see someone swing it reverse consistently in Australia. It happens something, though but even then it's only very little. Certainly not as much or as late as in England.

Personally, England's bowlers won't be quite as successful in the coming series. Matt Hoggard is quite reliant on moving the new nurry around and in Australia, that's a tough thing to maintain. Harmi is half the bowler away from England and Giles, well......... I also think Flintoff's struggles in the Super Test and ODI's are a harbinger of what he'll bowl like next year (if he's in the side; I think he'll be well-and-truly injured before then); he'll still be quick and dangerous with a new cherry or in overcast conditions but in good batting conditions, without the same degree of reverse swing, I don't think he'll be as successful. Additionally, if he tries the same around-the-wicket line to Gillie, I don't think that will be as successful either.

For mine, Simon Jones is the key bowler in the return series. He's quick, moves the ball around no matter what the conditions are and when he's on song, he runs through sides. I could quite easily see him giving Hodge and Symonds a pretty nasty time.

As for the series as a whole, with Flintoff and Jones in the side it's too tough to call. Slight edge to Australia only because they're at home and are better at batting on hard, true pitches than England are (at this point in time). Without either one of those two, I predict a relatively comfortable win for Australia. Depends on the pitches, though; if they are as flat and true as they are now, that will suit Australia and line bowlers like McGrath and whoever gets picked to bowl first-change. If they move around a bit, the series will be very close. Either way, I'm taking leave those six weeks!

 

[Linda]

Sorry, what? I cant take my eyes off that avatar...

 

[superkingdave]

Nope. Two reasons; the balls we used aren't hand-made with huge seams like Dukes are so there's less swing automatically. Two, we don't have the same weather conditions to help the process. It's rare to see someone swing it reverse consistently in Australia. It happens something, though but even then it's only very little. Certainly not as much or as late as in England.

Personally, England's bowlers won't be quite as successful in the coming series. Matt Hoggard is quite reliant on moving the new nurry around and in Australia, that's a tough thing to maintain. Harmi is half the bowler away from England and Giles, well......... I also think Flintoff's struggles in the Super Test and ODI's are a harbinger of what he'll bowl like next year (if he's in the side; I think he'll be well-and-truly injured before then); he'll still be quick and dangerous with a new cherry or in overcast conditions but in good batting conditions, without the same degree of reverse swing, I don't think he'll be as successful. Additionally, if he tries the same around-the-wicket line to Gillie, I don't think that will be as successful either.

For mine, Simon Jones is the key bowler in the return series. He's quick, moves the ball around no matter what the conditions are and when he's on song, he runs through sides. I could quite easily see him giving Hodge and Symonds a pretty nasty time.

As for the series as a whole, with Flintoff and Jones in the side it's too tough to call. Slight edge to Australia only because they're at home and are better at batting on hard, true pitches than England are (at this point in time). Without either one of those two, I predict a relatively comfortable win for Australia. Depends on the pitches, though; if they are as flat and true as they are now, that will suit Australia and line bowlers like McGrath and whoever gets picked to bowl first-change. If they move around a bit, the series will be very close. Either way, I'm taking leave those six weeks!

7 wickets@15podd is hardly struggles but i get your general point

 

[Scaly piscine]

Nope. Two reasons; the balls we used aren't hand-made with huge seams like Dukes are so there's less swing automatically. Two, we don't have the same weather conditions to help the process. It's rare to see someone swing it reverse consistently in Australia. It happens something, though but even then it's only very little. Certainly not as much or as late as in England.

Personally, England's bowlers won't be quite as successful in the coming series. Matt Hoggard is quite reliant on moving the new nurry around and in Australia, that's a tough thing to maintain. Harmi is half the bowler away from England and Giles, well......... I also think Flintoff's struggles in the Super Test and ODI's are a harbinger of what he'll bowl like next year (if he's in the side; I think he'll be well-and-truly injured before then); he'll still be quick and dangerous with a new cherry or in overcast conditions but in good batting conditions, without the same degree of reverse swing, I don't think he'll be as successful. Additionally, if he tries the same around-the-wicket line to Gillie, I don't think that will be as successful either.

For mine, Simon Jones is the key bowler in the return series. He's quick, moves the ball around no matter what the conditions are and when he's on song, he runs through sides. I could quite easily see him giving Hodge and Symonds a pretty nasty time.

As for the series as a whole, with Flintoff and Jones in the side it's too tough to call. Slight edge to Australia only because they're at home and are better at batting on hard, true pitches than England are (at this point in time). Without either one of those two, I predict a relatively comfortable win for Australia. Depends on the pitches, though; if they are as flat and true as they are now, that will suit Australia and line bowlers like McGrath and whoever gets picked to bowl first-change. If they move around a bit, the series will be very close. Either way, I'm taking leave those six weeks!

Disagree with most of this. Harmison being 'half the bowler away' seems to me a bit of a myth. It's based on one bad series that could have happened anywhere really - I don't see you saying he's 'twice the bowler away' because of how he destroyed WI. Also you go on about how it hardly reverse swings in Australia, and then say Simon Jones is the key bowler... a guy who's main weapon is reverse swing.

 

[aussie]

Disagree with most of this. Harmison being 'half the bowler away' seems to me a bit of a myth. It's based on one bad series that could have happened anywhere really - I don't see you saying he's 'twice the bowler away' because of how he destroyed WI. Also you go on about how it hardly reverse swings in Australia, and then say Simon Jones is the key bowler... a guy who's main weapon is reverse swing.

true about Harmy but you can use the PAK series as well he didn't look all that threatening as usually is at home since 2004. With Jones yes reverse-swing is one of his main weapons in bowling but TC is right about the fact that he still moves the ball around in no matter the conditions.

 

[Scaly piscine]

true about Harmy but you can use the PAK series as well he didn't look all that threatening as usually is at home since 2004. With Jones yes reverse-swing is one of his main weapons in bowling but TC is right about the fact that he still moves the ball around in no matter the conditions.

He can swing the ball normally but not as well as he reverse swings it, if neither of those are possible he won't move the ball around - he isn't McGrath.

 

[aussie]

He can swing the ball normally but not as well as he reverse swings it, if neither of those are possible he won't move the ball around - he isn't McGrath.

not saying he is McGrath just that he can swing the ball in all conditions.

 

[marc71178]

true about Harmy but you can use the PAK series as well he didn't look all that threatening as usually is at home since 2004.

Erm, didn't he bowl one of the best 1fers ever known in the 3rd Test?

 

[howardj]

I also think Flintoff's struggles in the Super Test and ODI's are a harbinger of what he'll bowl like next year (if he's in the side; I think he'll be well-and-truly injured before then); he'll still be quick and dangerous with a new cherry or in overcast conditions but in good batting conditions, without the same degree of reverse swing, I don't think he'll be as successful. Additionally, if he tries the same around-the-wicket line to Gillie, I don't think that will be as successful either.

!

I actually thought even a dis-interested Flintoff showed plenty on the second morning of that Super-Test in Sydney, and throughout the Test as a whole. He moved the ball quite a way on the second morning and cleaned Australia up easily. He finished the match with 4-59 and 3-48. Not bad for a half-interested bowler. But, yeah, Simon Jones is a key man next summer. He's the perfect bowler to exploit Ricky Ponting's tendency to move across the crease early on. He always looks like a massive chance of hitting Ponting on the pads, by skidding the ball through or moving it late. It surprised me how quick he was during the Ashes too.

 

[Top_Cat]

Also you go on about how it hardly reverse swings in Australia, and then say Simon Jones is the key bowler... a guy who's main weapon is reverse swing.

'Main' weapon, not 'only' weapon. He has plenty more to offer including the ability to make the ball lift off a length. In Australia, that means wickets. I don't think he'll swing it much either but if he regularly hits the seam (which I reckon he could), he'll be a handful.

And no, I'm not just talking about Harmi's one bad series in SA. I'm talking about what I've seen of him bowling in other series as well. He has periods where he's bowling well enough but then lots of dead spots. And bear in mind I've been an unabashed Harmi fan ever since just about everyone else was ripping him a new one after his last Aussie tour. If he proves me wrong and bowls well, as a fan of good fast bowling first and Australia second, I'll be loving it.

It surprised me how quick he was during the Ashes too.

I think he may have dropped a few k's since he did his knee. Either way, no matter how quick he's bowling, he seems the sort of bowler who will hurry anyone because he appears to hit the bat a lot harder than batsmen think. Especially if he's moving the ball back into the right-hander. And I think you're right; Ponting will have some work to do if he comes up against Jones early in his innings.

 

[Jono]

I actually thought even a dis-interested Flintoff showed plenty on the second morning of that Super-Test in Sydney, and throughout the Test as a whole. He moved the ball quite a way on the second morning and cleaned Australia up easily. He finished the match with 4-59 and 3-48. Not bad for a half-interested bowler.

Yeah I agree. Flintoff was pretty good during that Super Test, and as you said he never looked that interested in the match in the first place (more so with the bat than ball though, but even so). That spell of his on the 2nd day was great, including that lovely ball to get Gilly LBW before he reached his ton.

Struggled? Nope, not at all. Still the equal 2nd best pacer in world cricket IMO. Nothing in Australia showed that he wouldn't be, but I do agree that he'll probably be less effective than he was in England. That's only natural though, and most fast bowlers (in form ones, not the Gillespie ones) would too unless they are Glenn McGrath.

 

[Maison]

errrr why should I?

Im actually quite serious.....the invincable aura aus had is gone. Most of your current players are looking either heartless, ancient or pretty much average (or all) and the long touted crop of awesome players in the Sheffield Sheild who are ready to set up has been shown to be utter BS

Im not saying Australia will be in tatters Bangles-Zimbo type tatters ....but from here their results will continue to slide, the Aus media will turn up the heat, the fans wont respond well to a middling type team and so by the time the ashes return it will be more like aust needed to prove they are in the top 3 by at least getting a drawn series. = tatters compared to your last few years

Look how old your team is...particulary the greats Warne/McGrath/Gilly, the dynasty is over

errr yeh "shut it" :/

i cant see how itll be in tatters.... we've got ponting! (.....yay)

and okay, mcgrath might need a zimmer-frame soon, but he is still economical. then theres warne, his age wont do jacksh**, he's gonna try till 40, which is a few years to go.....

oh then we have hussey.... oh and maybe hodge.... and oh wait theres another guy ummm... who has recently hit form.. who is it? umm... oh yeah, matty hayden

tatters i say!


edit - and to be honest, i'd like to see england swing that ball one more time in an ashes series, specially over here, cmon, lets see it swing.....

*cough*

 

[Jono]

I think he may have dropped a few k's since he did his knee.

I think he did initially when he returned, but picked it up a bit at the start of 2005. That doesn't necessarily mean the pace he bowled during the Ashes was how he bowled in 2002/03, but he did lift his pace after his initial return as he grooved back into cricket.

 

[Top_Cat]

I think he did initially when he returned, but picked it up a bit at the start of 2005. That doesn't necessarily mean the pace he bowled during the Ashes was how he bowled in 2002/03, but he did lift his pace after his initial return as he grooved back into cricket.

I distinctly remember hearing reports of him getting a few past 150km/h pre-knee injury and since then, haven't seen him touch that speed. That's why I thought he'd dropped a little speed. Still, he's freakin' quick.

 

[Tom Halsey]

I distinctly remember hearing reports of him getting a few past 150km/h pre-knee injury and since then, haven't seen him touch that speed. That's why I thought he'd dropped a little speed. Still, he's freakin' quick.

I remember him being distinctly wild on his debut at home to India and in the morning session Down Under, but I don't think he was 150 km/h to be honest. But I can't remember very well so maybe.

 

[howardj]

Jones really ticks all the boxes regarding reverse swing - he's damn quick; bowls fairly full and straight; gets the seam bolt upright; and gets his wrist right behind the ball. I don't think any of the Australian bowlers, or many bowlers who have visited these shores recently, really do all of the above on a regular basis. Therefore, I think the jury is, to an extent, still out on how much 'reverse' he will get next Summer.

 

[BoyBrumby]

He was up over 90mph on a few occasions in SA during our tour over there in 04/05, but I don't think he broached it at all in The Ashes. High 80s on occasion tho, certainly. His stock ball is definitely slower since the anterior cruciate.

I think he may get a little more swing when he's not straining for the high notes, as it were. He looked pretty much gunbarrel straight in SA, but was reversing it all over the show in The Ashes.

 

[PY]

He was up over 90mph on a few occasions in SA during our tour over there in 04/05, but I don't think he broached it at all in The Ashes. High 80s on occasion tho, certainly. His stock ball is definitely slower since the anterior cruciate.

I think he may get a little more swing when he's not straining for the high notes, as it were. He looked pretty much gunbarrel straight in SA, but was reversing it all over the show in The Ashes.

He definitely htouched 90mph in the Ashes because I remember thinking how great it was he was back because it gave us 3 90+ mph bowlers in the side who could bowl at the stumps and know where they were putting it. It was an effort ball type delivery though rather than his stock ball which as you state is 86-87 I reckon?

He was definitely zippy during India home series though because he had 'em hopping at 93-94mph IIRC. I just hope he's the same bowler when he's back from this injury because one day he's going to come back from a niggle or bigger with a smaller tank to bowl from.

 

[aussie]

Erm, didn't he bowl one of the best 1fers ever known in the 3rd Test?

true but thats just one innings, but its obvious since Harmy came of age in 2004 when ever he goes overseas he doesn't look as effective as he is on home pitches.

 

[aussie]

I remember him being distinctly wild on his debut at home to India and in the morning session Down Under, but I don't think he was 150 km/h to be honest. But I can't remember very well so maybe.

yea on his debut vs India i remember getting over 150 a few times, on the 1st morning at the gabba before he was injured he was in the mid 140's in SA he hit 90 & few times but in the ashes he didn't reach 90 mph at all. So for me now he is medium-fast no longer the tearaway of 2002.