View Poll Results: Who will win this match?

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  • Australia

    30 46.15%
  • New Zealand

    35 53.85%
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Thread: Final - New Zealand v Australia (29th March)

  1. #3481
    Hall of Fame Member HeathDavisSpeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JediNudist View Post
    This from Chris Rattue a NZ sports journo, Saying what many have been too scared to say :

    "Time to harden up

    Brendon McCullum's side had an outstanding World Cup tournament. But spare us all this nonsense about being proud of how they performed in the final. Who cares if they were polite? Their batting was rubbish in the ultimate game. No professional sports person or their fans should be so ridiculously proud of that.

    What do batting better and hardening up have to do with each other? Utter bollocks from old Ratty. NZ were outplayed, but even our best performer - Grant Elliott - was a model citizen in this game. I suppose if he'd "hardened up" then he'd have scored a ton and taken some wickets or some old bollocks. Quite frankly, I'm overjoyed with how the New Zealand team have performed over the past 12 months, and a good part of that has to be due to the culture within the team. There's no need to mess with it just because they lost to an Australian team who were vastly superior on the day.
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  2. #3482
    Hall of Fame Member Hurricane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeathDavisSpeed View Post
    What do batting better and hardening up have to do with each other? Utter bollocks from old Ratty. NZ were outplayed, but even our best performer - Grant Elliott - was a model citizen in this game. I suppose if he'd "hardened up" then he'd have scored a ton and taken some wickets or some old bollocks. Quite frankly, I'm overjoyed with how the New Zealand team have performed over the past 12 months, and a good part of that has to be due to the culture within the team. There's no need to mess with it just because they lost to an Australian team who were vastly superior on the day.
    In the context Ratman has used it in; hardening up sounds most undesirable. He even advocates playing with spite.
    If it is used in a different sense that they actually need to show some determination with the bat in grand finals then it makes a lot of sense. Kane's dismissal was unacceptable on all levels, as was Guptills, as was Brendon's, as was Corey's, as was Ronchi's. If they could go back in time and play the game again then basically they needed to be told to play with steel resolve before the game started. Most of our batsman flaked out due to the occassion and not the bowling.
    Last edited by Hurricane; 07-04-2015 at 03:38 AM.
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  3. #3483
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend OverratedSanity's Avatar
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    The stupid thing about the "harden up" and "NZ were too nice" comments from Rattue and Haddin is that it also ends up doing a disservice how good Australia were and effectively says that they didn't really win because they played better cricket, oh no... they won because they were proper dicks.
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  4. #3484
    Cricketer Of The Year wellAlbidarned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurricane View Post
    In the context Ratman has used it in; hardening up sounds most undesirable. He even advocates playing with spite.
    If it is used in a different sense that they actually need to show some determination with the bat in grand finals then it makes a lot of sense. Kane's dismissal was unacceptable on all levels, as was Guptills, as was Brendon's, as was Corey's, as was Ronchi's. If they could go back in time and play the game again then basically they needed to be told to play with steel resolve before the game started. Most of our batsman flaked out due to the occassion and not the bowling.
    you must be joking if you think any one our dismissals was due to lack of determination. No professional sportsperson has ever got to a grand ****ing final of whatever it is they play and failed due to a lack of determination.
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  5. #3485
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Flem274*'s Avatar
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    lol rattue. he's never written a word worth reading. his flip flopping during the captaincy saga was glorious.
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  6. #3486
    Hall of Fame Member Hurricane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wellAlbidarned View Post
    you must be joking if you think any one our dismissals was due to lack of determination. No professional sportsperson has ever got to a grand ****ing final of whatever it is they play and failed due to a lack of determination.
    Lack of grit, willpower, and determination is my verdict. I can't explain those dismissals any other way. Except for Brendon possibly who responded to the Occassion by being more aggressive than normal.

    Kane's dismissal was soft. As was most of the others. Brendon's inning was ill advised.

    Edit it is possible we are both using the word determination differently. I don't doubt the blackcaps wanted to win badly but that is not my definition of the word.
    Last edited by Hurricane; 07-04-2015 at 02:39 PM.

  7. #3487
    Hall of Fame Member HeathDavisSpeed's Avatar
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    There are many reasons why a batsman can be dismissed in a poor or 'soft' way. Not all of them are to do with lack of application or determination

    1. 'Soft' dismissal was actually due to good bowling.
    2. The occasion has got to the batsman (especially important in a World Cup final, you'd think)
    3. Poor execution
    4. Poor decision making
    5. Bad luck
    6. Some combination of all or some of the above

    Putting it down to lack of determination boils the whole thing down to the level of a trite soundbite like 'showing character'. There's absolutely no way that they weren't 'determined' to win. I get your point that you're widening that term to mean lack of mental application but you can put in all the mental preparation you can and still mistime a shot or play the wrong shot. One mistake, and that's game over as a batsman in an ODI.

  8. #3488
    State Vice-Captain jcas0167's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurricane View Post
    Lack of grit, willpower, and determination is my verdict. I can't explain those dismissals any other way. Except for Brendon possibly who responded to the Occassion by being more aggressive than normal.

    Kane's dismissal was soft. As was most of the others. Brendon's inning was ill advised.

    Edit it is possible we are both using the word determination differently. I don't doubt the blackcaps wanted to win badly but that is not my definition of the word.
    There's also the paradox of people trying too hard and inhibiting their reactions as a result. I remember the tv interview after he scored a century against Australia in the opening game of the 1992 World Cup Martin Crowe said he was saying to himself coming in to bat at about 14/2 "soft hands and courage". Easier said than done obviously with a roaring crowd and World Cup final. Crowe later elaborated on his approach:

    I developed a routine where I would go towards square leg, stand there, switch off and control my breathing. I sort of stayed in the "now" by rubbing my back or just focusing on my breathing, and I would go, "This ball, this ball, this ball, this ball." Then, "Soft hands, soft hands, soft hands," as I took my stance. Then I would look at the bowler and go, "Watch the ball, watch the ball, watch the ball." Those were my three affirmations. The softer and the slower I spoke, the more relaxed I was. I used the affirmations so that no other thought could get in. And that's how I controlled my concentration and my ability to see the ball.
    Last edited by jcas0167; 07-04-2015 at 09:32 PM.
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  9. #3489
    Hall of Fame Member Hurricane's Avatar
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    I like jcas's answer quite a bit. And I considered this as well. You need to be at the optimum state of motivation, because if you aren't relaxed and disengaged from the situation you will be too tight and conservative with your play.
    I guess to counter that "over amped" state of mind I would counter that if you play with what I define as "determination" then you can channel your energy and harness it.

    @heefitron
    I am not a bowler and view the world as a batsman while I suspect, and hope so that we get a variety of perspectives on the forum, that you view things as a bowler.
    Based on my experience as a batsman I put down soft dismissals to batsman error 100% of the time and don't credit the bowler. If I felt that a bowler forced an errant shot out of desperation because the bowling was tight then I wouldn't call that a soft dismissal to begin with.
    Out of the reasons you listed the one that resonated with me was that they were overawed by the Occassion which basically is what I am saying in my posts.
    I will reinforce that point by saying young blackcap players have always gotten stage fright in front of a big crowd as long as I can remember.
    They needed to forget the crowd and play with steel resolve and hatred in their hearts for the opposition ( but not hate on their lips)

    The final point I will counter is your suggestion that a soft dismissal can be due to a technical snafu that will never happen again. There is no denying that is true and I once got out caught and bowled by mistiming a drive, but when 4 guys and arguably 5 on the same side all have supposed technical malfunctions in the same game then I personally look at other factors to explain it.
    The last thing I will say to you is something I have been meaning to say to you for many many years. Please take the environment of my post into consideration before you formulate a reaction.
    I am posting on a cricket website with 100 active users. If I was commenting in the newspaper or in some respectable academic publication then I would mince words and just make tentative suggestions of what could have been a factor on the day. By rights I have no place commenting on their motivation or determination as I didn't interview them on the day and I am not a sports psychologist anyway.
    I choose to make my points somewhat dramatic so they will make conversation. I figure if we all put caveats on all our opinions then there won't be much discussion around here.

    So with that explanation of how I post in mind let me close by saying with deliberate hyperbole that I was dumbfounded by some of those dismissals. Kane should never ever be getting out like that nor should Corey, and Martin and Luke aren't far behind in my book.
    jcas0167 likes this.

  10. #3490
    Cricketer Of The Year wellAlbidarned's Avatar
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    Williamson got out trying to work a ball from off-stump to the leg side after a series of tight deliveries. Every top ODI batsman does that regularly. Kane does that regularly. This time, under the pressure of 95,000 people, he cocked it up. Nothing more to it than that.



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