Have South Africa taken a big step in removing the CHOKERS tag

I think last night was probably an example of India losing the plot when the things got close, I find the Saffers lower middle order to be pretty brittle and for me they clearly lack a power-hitter or finisher in their lower order.

So for the Indian bowlers to allow the likes of Botha and Peterson to hit out against them was just poor bowling more than anything else, through the chase the game was in India's favour and they were the one's that messed things up first with the bat then with the ball during the closing stages of both innings.

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Originally Posted by tooextracool

Correct me if I am wrong here but this is SA's record in world cup knock out games:

92 World Cup: 1st knockout game = semis vs England. Result: Lost
96 World cup: 1st knockout game = Quarters vs WI. Result: Lost
99 World Cup: 1st knockout game = Semis vs Australia. Result: Lost
2003 World Cup: Didnt reach knockout stage
2007 World Cup: 1st knockout game = Semis vs Australia. Result: Lost
2011 World Cup. 1st knockout game = Quarters vs ? Result: ?

2007 T20 World Cup: Didnt reach knockout stage
2009 T20 World Cup: 1st knockout game = Semis vs Pakistan. Result: Lost
2010 t20 World Cup: Didnt reach knockout stage.

Given that they have lost 100% of their knockout games in history, it is a bit hard to understand how beating India in a rather meaningless game is supposed to cure 19 years that they've spent building and enhancing their reputation as the game's finest World cup knockout chokers. The only way to remove the tag is for them to replace that question mark with a win.

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That's crazy.

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Originally Posted by pup11

I think last night was probably an example of India losing the plot when the things got close, I find the Saffers lower middle order to be pretty brittle and for me they clearly lack a power-hitter or finisher in their lower order.

So for the Indian bowlers to allow the likes of Botha and Peterson to hit out against them was just poor bowling more than anything else, through the chase the game was in India's favour and they were the one's that messed things up first with the bat then with the ball during the closing stages of both innings.

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I concur.

India doesn't do well under pressure so I can understand the bowling thing. But batting......wow

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Originally Posted by vcs

How many WC knockout games have NZ won? Are they chokers as well? It's four or five games FFS.

I do think there's an element of mental fragility about them under pressure, but you can't draw that conclusion based on a list of knockout results, you have to watch them play.

FTR, SA won the inaugural Champions Trophy in '98 when Tendulkar scored that hundred against Australia and took 4 wickets in the same game. Beat WI in the final IIRC.

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Dont think its fair to compare them to NZ given that SA were favorites to win those games on almost all of those occasions.

Their chokers tag even extends outside of the world cups tbh. Distinctively remember them in the 90s as the side that would win all of the qualifying games in routine tri-series and proceed to bottle it in the finals. The Carlton United series in 1997, Titan Series, the tournament in 1993 when Mcmillan couldnt score 4 runs against Tendulkar in the final over(FFS!), the texaco trophy in 1998 etc. Sure they didnt always choke and there are many series that they won during the same period but their performances in the Finals of most tournaments when it really mattered was astonishing especially given that they were far and away the best ODI side of that time.

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Originally Posted by tooextracool

Dont think its fair to compare them to NZ given that SA were favorites to win those games on almost all of those occasions.

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really:unsure:

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Originally Posted by tooextracool

Dont think its fair to compare them to NZ given that SA were favorites to win those games on almost all of those occasions.

Their chokers tag even extends outside of the world cups tbh. Distinctively remember them in the 90s as the side that would win all of the qualifying games in routine tri-series and proceed to bottle it in the finals. The Carlton United series in 1997, Titan Series, the tournament in 1993 when Mcmillan couldnt score 4 runs against Tendulkar in the final over(FFS!), the texaco trophy in 1998 etc. Sure they didnt always choke and there are many series that they won during the same period but their performances in the Finals of most tournaments when it really mattered was astonishing especially given that they were far and away the best ODI side of that time.

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Yeah, fair point about their record in finals of tri-series.

@ The topic title, certainly not! They've taken a step to being successful for the rest of the tournament (a loss to India would have dented their confidence massively), but the fact remains they haven't gotten close- have not made a final.

If they do justice to their ability, make the final and play well- not doing something stupid to throw it away, IMO they can say they aren't chokers.

There is no shame in losing to Aus in a Final, as i think they will

I know a lot of you seem to be tired of it but I think SA having the chokers tag is hilarious and brilliant.

Every tournament and every knock out match the SA captain has to answer umpteen dozen choke-related questions from dimwitted reporters, there are hundreds of newspaper articles written about it and no matter how much the South African players clap their hands over their ears and chant 'we're better now' and 'that was a completely different team back then', that worm of doubt burrows into the psyche, buries itself in a quiet corner of each players' brain and then arises like a crazed electrician in a switchroom to pull out important wires, tie them in knots, douse them in water and replug them at random, to the point where the man in green can hardly walk in a straight line let alone remember to run to the other end.

It is the embodiment of a self-fulfilling prophecy and I think it's fascinating how this idea has taken on a life of its own and keeps growing and growing.

And no, the only way South Africa can get rid of the tag is by winning multiple knockout matches, and probably the whole World Cup.

It simply won't go away until they win a WC.

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Originally Posted by straw man

I know a lot of you seem to be tired of it but I think SA having the chokers tag is hilarious and brilliant.

Every tournament and every knock out match the SA captain has to answer umpteen dozen choke-related questions from dimwitted reporters, there are hundreds of newspaper articles written about it and no matter how much the South African players clap their hands over their ears and chant 'we're better now' and 'that was a completely different team back then', that worm of doubt burrows into the psyche, buries itself in a quiet corner of each players' brain and then arises like a crazed electrician in a switchroom to pull out important wires, tie them in knots, douse them in water and replug them at random, to the point where the man in green can hardly walk in a straight line let alone remember to run to the other end.

It is the embodiment of a self-fulfilling prophecy and I think it's fascinating how this idea has taken on a life of its own and keeps growing and growing.

And no, the only way South Africa can get rid of the tag is by winning multiple knockout matches, and probably the whole World Cup.

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lol.....quality post

SA will be chokers until they win a world cup, simple as..

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Originally Posted by straw man

I know a lot of you seem to be tired of it but I think SA having the chokers tag is hilarious and brilliant.

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I agree.

In baseball, the redsox "choke" and curse was one of the most interesting story lines in the game. Too bad it ended after 86 years.
Hell the cubs have a 100 year thing going but there fans seem to like it, so you cant even make fun of them.:wacko:

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Originally Posted by vcs

That's what she said.

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:laugh: thought this needed more appreciation

On topic SA will only lose the tag once they win a WC. Their reputation is similar to the one Spain had before they won the Euro 2008; Spain were regular underachievers at the Euros and WC and at the start of every tournament they would be disregarded because of this, but since winning Euro 2008 no one disregards them any more

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Originally Posted by Langeveldt

SA will be chokers until they win a world cup, simple as..

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Winning an elimination stage game in the WC would be a start to remove the tag.

But obviously it's perception rather than reality - how many in the squad who were there in '99?

SA were considered chokers well before '99 and not just in ODI cricket.