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Who is better- Lara or Tendulkar?

C_C

International Captain
1. I was refering to the Indian team in general which he did trouble a lot in his 1st series.
Again, one series or one match is irrelevant. What is relevant, is overall....I am sure if you look at an isolated match, even bradman looked ordinary....... and Overall Lee has been spanked by India pretty good......he had a pretty good series in 1999 where he picked over half his wickets against the lower order but then got soundly thrashed in 2004....so overall, he's done pretty poorly, really.

2. True but looking at little we have seen of them againts this type of bowling i'm pretty sure Katich will become a better player of pace in testing conditions than Sehwag.
That is a pretty tall call....Sehwag is already pretty well established and one of the 'potential greats'........he's done well against almost every single attack he's so far faced.
But it is definately open to discussion and at this point, Katich isnt in the same level as Sehwag.....against any kinda bowling in Test cricket.

3. Well he might not bowl to them on a green top but he might get to bowl to them on a bouncy track (probably in PAK) but when Akhtar destroyed India in Eden Gardens he was bowling much better than he bowled in 2004. But he has never bowled to the Indians on a fast bouncy track in tests....
He was bowling a lot better ? Not really.....he just strung two consecutive jaw-dropping yorkers in Eden Gardens and in Pakistan, he bowled excellently in the opening spells but got soundly thrashed.
And PAK doesnt really have a bouncy track...closest is Karachi and India didnt play a test there.

4. Tendulkar did better againts Donald/Pollock but he only faced Ambi/Cuddy together only in 97 & didn't do anythhing that special but Ponting faced them in 1 or 2 tests in 96/97 & 99 and had some good scores againts them.
57 average in a series against Ambrose-Walsh in their own backyard is pretty damn special if you ask me, considering that you'd struggle to find ANY batsman who's done it against them.......He's done significantly better than Ponting against Ambrose-Walsh and again, its irrelevant that Ponting has played them more. For it is mere conjencture that Tendulkar might've done better/worse with more goes against Ambrose-Walsh. What is not conjencture, is how he has actually done.

When Martyn & Langer faced Walsh/Bishop & especially Ambrose in 92/93 they were at their peak while in 97 they weren't has good.
True, but they still did pretty poorly.

Gilchrist faced Wasim/Waqar/Akhtar in his debut series & did pretty well averaging 88 & doing better than dravid who played againts them in 99 in more test conditions in AUS, whiel Gilchrist has never faced Ambrose/Walsh in tests.
True, but Gilly has faced very little true testing pace and bounce and i cannot see how you can discount Sehwag due to his lack of experience in this regard while trumpet Gillchrist...its inconsistent.

So no the Aussies still have the edge againts the quick stufff & the the medim-pace accurate stuff....
This justification isnt supported by facts, given that Hayden, Langer, Katich,Pup are either pretty ordinary against raw pace or totally unproven.... I am talking overall here, mate.
 

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
SJS said:
You want to discuss something or is this just criticism for the sake of criticism. If it is the latter as your aggressive tone to my earlier post seems to suggest (apologies if i am mistaken) please forgive me for not responding in future. It is not to offend you but to make better use of my time.
Whatever. 8-)
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
C_C said:
Again, one series or one match is irrelevant. What is relevant, is overall....I am sure if you look at an isolated match, even bradman looked ordinary....... and Overall Lee has been spanked by India pretty good......he had a pretty good series in 1999 where he picked over half his wickets against the lower order but then got soundly thrashed in 2004....so overall, he's done pretty poorly, really.



That is a pretty tall call....Sehwag is already pretty well established and one of the 'potential greats'........he's done well against almost every single attack he's so far faced.
But it is definately open to discussion and at this point, Katich isnt in the same level as Sehwag.....against any kinda bowling in Test cricket.



He was bowling a lot better ? Not really.....he just strung two consecutive jaw-dropping yorkers in Eden Gardens and in Pakistan, he bowled excellently in the opening spells but got soundly thrashed.
And PAK doesnt really have a bouncy track...closest is Karachi and India didnt play a test there.



57 average in a series against Ambrose-Walsh in their own backyard is pretty damn special if you ask me, considering that you'd struggle to find ANY batsman who's done it against them.

True, but they still did pretty poorly.


True, but Gilly has faced very little true testing pace and bounce and i cannot see how you can discount Sehwag due to his lack of experience in this regard while trumpet Gillchrist...its inconsistent.



This justification isnt supported by facts, given that Hayden, Langer, Katich,Pup are either pretty ordinary against raw pace or totally unproven.... I am talking overall here, mate.
Facts say Lee has been spanked by India, but in 99 he was young and raw and really troubled the Indian batsmen with his pace on some good bouncy tracks, while in 2003/04 he was coming off an injury and wasn't bowling at his best plus the pitches at the MCG & SCG didn't help him much either.

I agree that Sehwag is probably shaping out to be a potential great, but to say that Katich isnt in the same level with Katich againts either spin or pace in test is overexaggerating mate... :sleep:

Yes i know Karachi is probably the only bouncy track in PAK, but going back to Akhtar in 2004 i remember watching that 1st morning in Multan and Shoaib was bowling with the right idea (which was bowling short of a lenght to Sehwag looking to rough him up with pace) but the pitch was pretty slow and Sehwag smashed him around.

He may have averaged 57 but i have a tape with highlights of that series and he didn't dominate Ambrose & Walsh by any stretch of the imagination

Langer & Martyn did do poorly but they had a thougher challenge on those AUS wickets facing them than Dravid had in 97....

But the thing with Sehwag ig he comes up againts pacy bowling on bouncy trakcs i dont see him making too many runs.

Hayden & Pup are ordinary, Langer is not no way while i agree that Katich is unproven to date.
 

C_C

International Captain
Facts say Lee has been spanked by India, but in 99 he was young and raw and really troubled the Indian batsmen with his pace on some good bouncy tracks, while in 2003/04 he was coming off an injury and wasn't bowling at his best plus the pitches at the MCG & SCG didn't help him much either.
Bull.
Lee succeeded in 1999 because he was an unknown quantity. If you follow Indian cricket, you'd realise that India has a propensity to lose it against unknown quantities......a lotta debutants or newbies do exceedingly well against india....And Lee was comming off an injury but he was extremely hyped up- he bowled as well as he's bowled in the past 2-3 years and just got spanked. If i score 10 runs in 5 innings against you in round 1 and 1000 runs in 4 innings in round 2, overall, i've dominated you. Simple as that.


I agree that Sehwag is probably shaping out to be a potential great, but to say that Katich isnt in the same level with Katich againts either spin or pace in test is overexaggerating mate...
Bull.
Look at Sehwag's record and look at Katich's. Katich is nowhere close and hasnt played anywhere close to as much as Sehwag to deserve mention in the same bracket.

Yes i know Karachi is probably the only bouncy track in PAK, but going back to Akhtar in 2004 i remember watching that 1st morning in Multan and Shoaib was bowling with the right idea (which was bowling short of a lenght to Sehwag looking to rough him up with pace) but the pitch was pretty slow and Sehwag smashed him around.
Akhtar was clocking 93-94 mph in that opening spell. That aint slow by any stretch of imagination.

Langer & Martyn did do poorly but they had a thougher challenge on those AUS wickets facing them than Dravid had in 97.
Bull.
Through the 90s, WI pitches were no less bouncy than Aussie wickets. Infact, they were a bit harder to bat on because while Bridgetown was as bouncy and fast as Barbados, Sabina Park was a tougher challenge than Gabba to bat on and QPO has always been tough to bat on....definately tougher than Adelaide/Sydney/melbourne/hobart.

But the thing with Sehwag ig he comes up againts pacy bowling on bouncy trakcs i dont see him making too many runs.
You didnt see him. But he has made rusn on bouncy tracks ( in today's context) and made runs against pacey bowlers.....and i've quoted the instances above.

Hayden & Pup are ordinary, Langer is not no way while i agree that Katich is unproven to date.
Check Langer's stats against PAK-WI-RSA when they had a decent attack. Though in all honesty, Langer has improved.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
C_C said:
Bull.
Lee succeeded in 1999 because he was an unknown quantity. If you follow Indian cricket, you'd realise that India has a propensity to lose it against unknown quantities......a lotta debutants or newbies do exceedingly well against india....And Lee was comming off an injury but he was extremely hyped up- he bowled as well as he's bowled in the past 2-3 years and just got spanked. If i score 10 runs in 5 innings against you in round 1 and 1000 runs in 4 innings in round 2, overall, i've dominated you. Simple as that.




Bull.
Look at Sehwag's record and look at Katich's. Katich is nowhere close and hasnt played anywhere close to as much as Sehwag to deserve mention in the same bracket.



Akhtar was clocking 93-94 mph in that opening spell. That aint slow by any stretch of imagination.



Bull.
Through the 90s, WI pitches were no less bouncy than Aussie wickets. Infact, they were a bit harder to bat on because while Bridgetown was as bouncy and fast as Barbados, Sabina Park was a tougher challenge than Gabba to bat on and QPO has always been tough to bat on....definately tougher than Adelaide/Sydney/melbourne/hobart.



You didnt see him. But he has made rusn on bouncy tracks ( in today's context) and made runs against pacey bowlers.....and i've quoted the instances above.



Check Langer's stats against PAK-WI-RSA when they had a decent attack. Though in all honesty, Langer has improved.
I cant remembe r no hype surrounding Lee coming back intot the MCG test at all, and plus Lee has never bowled that well in test cricket but the fact is when he came back during that test series he was bowling no where near to full potential, if you remember he even struggled in the initial stages of the VB series which should prove m point even more since Lee throughout his career has always bowled well in ODI's.

Maybe Katich has played as much as Sehwag has yet, but that doesn't mean you can say that he is no where near the class of Sehwag againts either spin or pace, because to date i dont think Katich has a weakness againts either type of bowling & presently for me (not looking at career stats) he is Australia's best all-round batsman.

I never said Akhtar was bowling Slow all i'm saying is that he was bowling wasn't bowling has well in 2004 has he did in the Kolkatta test...

When has Sehwag played on a fast bouncy track in his career to date???

I'm talking about those series in particular not basically the entire 90s, i'm not so sure if Barbados in 97 was of the same pace of the the 70s, 80s & early 90s. That Perth pitch in 92 was extremely quick i have the DVD of that series & it was were Ambrose had that amazing 7 for 1 spell, while the Gabba pitch was pretty quick as well. While in 97 the only really fast pitch was in Barbados were India were routed for 80 odd the wrest weren't that quick even the one for the 1st test in Jamaica. So has i said before when Langer & Martyn faced Amborse/Walsh/Bishop in 92 they were definately more difficult to face than in 97....
 

C_C

International Captain
I cant remembe r no hype surrounding Lee coming back intot the MCG test at all
You must have a short memory then. For Steve Waugh and the entire aussie press ( led by SMH) predicted 'shock and awe' in store for the Indians when Lee returns.

plus Lee has never bowled that well in test cricket but the fact is when he came back during that test series he was bowling no where near to full potential
So if you say that he's never bowled well in test cricket, how are you determining that his insepid display was 'not performing to full potential' ?
When has Lee ever demonstrated the ability to carve out a good batting lineup, save for one instance in his debut series where he was an unknown ?

And its irrelevant how well Lee has bowled in ODIs, mate. ODI is not Test cricket and Agarkar, who is a decent ODI bowler is hopeless in Tests...pretty much the Indian version of Lee.

I never said Akhtar was bowling Slow all i'm saying is that he was bowling wasn't bowling has well in 2004 has he did in the Kolkatta test...
He was bowling very well in 2004...he had just finished re-arranging Gary Kirstien's face if you recall not too long before the IND series.
In kolkata he bowled two exceptional yorkers and was a superlative performance.
Its like saying McGrath hasnt bowled as well as his 8-25 spell most of his career...well..duh ! thats one of his superlative performances, not his average performance!

but that doesn't mean you can say that he is no where near the class of Sehwag againts either spin or pace, because to date i dont think Katich has a weakness againts either type of bowling & presently for me (not looking at career stats) he is Australia's best all-round batsman.
Ofcourse it means that you can say he is nowhere near the class of Sehwag.
Class is established not only by performance but also by experience. Which is why Sehwag is a potential great and not in the same bracket as Lara-Tendulkar YET.
And which is why Katich is not comparable to Sehwag in any shape or form in Test cricket...thats like comparing Brian Lara and Mark Waugh in 1995.
And like mark waugh, Katich doesnt look disturbed too often but again, like Mark Waugh and Lara case, it is pretty categoric that Katich hasnt performed anywhere in Sehwag's class.

i'm not so sure if Barbados in 97 was of the same pace of the the 70s, 80s & early 90s
Make up your mind.
Here you say that Bimshire wasnt as bouncy in 97 as in the 70s/80s/90s etc. Before you said that bimshire was pretty bouncy in 97 ( where you erroneously concluded that Dravid didnt do too well in that series).Now that you see Dravid has done well in that series, me thinks yer trying to change yer mind on the hostility of the bimshire pitch.
barbados pitch wasnt relaid till 2002 and till then, it was fast and hostile as hell. Check out the scores in barbados and see how Ambrose-Walsh and various other 'bouncy/pacy' bowlers have dominated in bimshire.
Having watched many a match played in bimshire, i can safely say that there wasnt much difference in bimshire pitch from 97 all the way back to maybe early 60s.

weren't that quick even the one for the 1st test in Jamaica.
Jamaica wasnt fast ????? Sabina Park has jostled with barbados and Perth for the 'fastest pitch' title for almost all its history before being relaid in 2003.
Infact, it was so brutal in the 90s that teams struggled to score 300 on that pitch and a match was actually abandoned in Sabina Park ( England vs WI in 97 i think) because it was TOO dangerous!

So has i said before when Langer & Martyn faced Amborse/Walsh/Bishop in 92 they were definately more difficult to face than in 97....
No. Ambrose was pretty much a mean customer to face for all his career, except maybe the last year or so. Its like saying McGrath is less meaner today than in 1999...no he isnt !
And while Bishop had declined by 97, Walsh had improved by leaps and bounds since 92.

In short, the pitches in OZ in 92 were no faster than 97 WI and like i said, WI was tougher to bat in because it had three of the four toughest pitches to bat on if you look at pitches from OZ and WI during that period ( Barbados, Perth, Sabina Park and QPO).

And given that Ambrose was pretty much just as good, Walsh had improved and Bishop had declined, there is no basis to say that the 92 attack was stronger than 97 attack.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
C_C said:
You must have a short memory then. For Steve Waugh and the entire aussie press ( led by SMH) predicted 'shock and awe' in store for the Indians when Lee returns.


Ofcourse it means that you can say he is nowhere near the class of Sehwag.
Class is established not only by performance but also by experience. Which is why Sehwag is a potential great and not in the same bracket as Lara-Tendulkar YET.
And which is why Katich is not comparable to Sehwag in any shape or form in Test cricket...thats like comparing Brian Lara and Mark Waugh in 1995.
And like mark waugh, Katich doesnt look disturbed too often but again, like Mark Waugh and Lara case, it is pretty categoric that Katich hasnt performed anywhere in Sehwag's class.
1. My memory must be really short because i honesty dont remember that :mellow:

2. Fair enough.

3. Agreed on everything else....

btw what do you think about the girl in my avatar pic??? :happy:
 

C_C

International Captain
aussie said:
btw what do you think about the girl in my avatar pic??? :happy:

I dunno.
I cant tell much from an over-exposed flash that turns everything into bleache-white texture.
:p :p
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
vic_orthdox said:
You are getting bored with this, aren't you? :D
no not really this argument has been good, but i still want an opinion on the pic care to give yours :happy: .......
 

vic_orthdox

Global Moderator
aussie said:
no not really this argument has been good, but i still want an opinion on the pic care to give yours :happy: .......
Reminds me of the chick outta the Black Eyed Peas. Despite her being attractive, that fact = not good :p

Come on C_C, you've fallen a post behind aussie for the thread. Better make it 66 all :p
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
vic_orthdox said:
Reminds me of the chick outta the Black Eyed Peas. Despite her being attractive, that fact = not good :p

Come on C_C, you've fallen a post behind aussie for the thread. Better make it 66 all :p
1. Hahaha :D

2. Gee i have posted that much

well i'm going to put up another one she's white so maybe you might find her to your liking... :p
 

Top_Cat

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Come on C_C, you've fallen a post behind aussie for the thread. Better make it 66 all
Funnily enough, I was just thinking that the smilie most conspicuous in its absence is the one of me blowing my own brains out.
 

C_C

International Captain
vic_orthdox said:
Reminds me of the chick outta the Black Eyed Peas. Despite her being attractive, that fact = not good :p

Come on C_C, you've fallen a post behind aussie for the thread. Better make it 66 all :p

I am such a CW whore !
Egad !
:D
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
vic_orthdox said:
:lol:

C'mon aussie, are you up to the challenge?

*vic credits himself for hijacking the thread :D *
na i'm cool :D the arguments here are about done now...
 

vic_orthdox

Global Moderator
C_C said:
Resistance is futile !
We will assimilate you !
:D
I thought you said "assassinate" for a second there. Until I realised that you have to be a person of some importance to be assassinated...
 

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