Where do England go from here?

[Richard]

Cook certainly should NOT miss out. Not as long as Strauss is around and Vaughan isn't scoring runs.

Why not? He's 22, he can wait a year or so if neccessary. Right now there are others who have more of a claim to a place.

 

[Richard]

He was excellent in the summer of 04? Well thats news to me. He had one good test in the whole summer and was by and large poor against NZ.

He played 3 innings against NZ! And 1 of those was one of the best Test innings I've ever seen from him as a middle-order player!

Over the entire summer, as far as I'm concerned, he did perfectly well. You cannot possibly expect someone to score massive runs every time they go to the crease. His scores that summer were 13, 61, 10, 103, 101* (OK he was dropped on 87 IIRR, but 87 was still a good knock), 12, 3, 12, 33, 66. Which if you offered most people for a summer's work they'd be happy with, even if 9 innings is less than you'd hope for given that you can have as many as 14.

In the winter of 04/05 and the summer of 05, despite batting in his favored position was still ordinary. By and large he was easily the worst batsman playing for England in that period from 2004-06/7

And Allan Border was the worst batsman for Australia in 1992\93-1993\94 - big wow, he still averaged about 50! Fact is, as far as I'm concerned Vaughan still did enough in that period for him not to be written-off as a Test batsman.

And as I've said 100 times, I don't feel he batted poorly in the winter of 2004\05 at all.

What is wrong with him not being picked? I ahve always believed that 'fit' is a lose term, and you are only really 'fit' when you are 'match fit'. Even the dullest of people will realise that Vaughan is not match fit. He hasnt played an FC game in a year and hes barely had any batting in shorter format. If he wasnt picked it would only suggest that they were waiting for him to find some form before he actually played.

Further England need a new captain anyways, because its highly unlikely that Vaughan who has suffered multiple new injuries is likely to play on a consistent basis anyways. I would not be too discouraged with him not playing as captain either, because England need him to score runs far more than they need his captaincy.

Indeed, but being a fine captain as he is do you really see him being picked as a specialist batsman? I don't.

I quite see your point about not being match-fit, but you and I both know that's not the way it works in the world of selection. It'd be seen as the England captain being dropped to find some form, which WOULD cause problems and you know it.

 

[social]

Why not? He's 22, he can wait a year or so if neccessary. Right now there are others who have more of a claim to a place.

No, there is nobody with a stronger claim to a top 3 position than him (4 test hundreds against major nations by the age of 21, 2 consecutive fc hundreds to start this season) and it's simply ludicrous to suggest that his career should be stalled whilst a mediocre performer like Vaughan is gifted a spot

 

[Richard]

If Vaughan were a mediocre performer it would indeed.

However, he's not.

 

[Pup Clarke]

Why not? He's 22, he can wait a year or so if neccessary. Right now there are others who have more of a claim to a place.

The guy's got 4 test centuries ffs at the age of 21!!!!.He should really be in the X1 for the 17th.

 

[Perm]

Why not? He's 22, he can wait a year or so if neccessary. Right now there are others who have more of a claim to a place.

I can't beleive you're saying this, right now Cook would be one of the first names down on the team sheet IMO. He's done well so far in international cricket, has made a good start to the county season and is the form opener out him Trescothick, Strauss and himself.

 

[Richard]

The guy's got 4 test centuries ffs at the age of 21!!!!.He should really be in the X1 for the 17th.

It should only be 1 century, ITBT. 1 of those centuries was as bad an innings as you could wish to see.

Cook's time can come - why does it need to be now? Had Trescothick not suffered his breakdown it's perfectly conceivable Cook would not even have played a Test yet.

 

[Pup Clarke]

It should only be 1 century, ITBT. 1 of those centuries was as bad an innings as you could wish to see.

Cook's time can come - why does it need to be now? Had Trescothick not suffered his breakdown it's perfectly conceivable Cook would not even have played a Test yet.

Richard I can't believe you are saying this drivel...He needs to play now because he has proved in the last year that he can get big runs at this level.End of.

 

[Richard]

It didn't elude him, Vaughan scored plenty of runs in 2004.

I cannot condone a Test side which does not have Vaughan in it if fit and having scored runs in domestic cricket.

 

[Perm]

It didn't elude him, Vaughan scored plenty of runs in 2004.

I cannot condone a Test side which does not have Vaughan in it if fit and having scored runs in domestic cricket.

Exactly, so let Trescothick find some form in the County Championship or drop Strauss who has been pretty damn average as of late.

 

[Richard]

Trescothick and form in the Championship has not often gone together. If we ever bring him back into the Test side we're always going to be guessing and hoping a bit.

Nor do I think Strauss - yet - deserves to be dropped. But he has had just 1 good series in his last 5, against the worst attack of them all. Nonetheless there's been little constant - whatever tec might say - in his dismissals in that time. It's not like pitching the ball up has invariably paid dividends.

 

[wpdavid]

Depends to some extent whether the new coach shares Fletcher's insistance on a five-man attack. 6 batsmen makes it almost inconceivable that Cook won't play. As should five, really, but I suppose there's more of a discussion to be had in that sort of line-up.

 

[social]

If Vaughan were a mediocre performer it would indeed.

However, he's not.

Sorry Rich, but you yourself pointed out that Vaughan averages a mountainous 34 of late

Their a pass mark for a keeper or an all-rounder, but pretty appalling for a batsman

He needs to go back to Yorkshire, score some runs (not that it'll prove anything - Jason Gillespie scored a hundred yesterday), learn how to field and put himself in the mix like everyone else

 

[Richard]

It's certainly not appalling. It's perfectly adaquete, given that it amounted to nothing more than 1 bad series (The Ashes 2005) out of 3.

If you can get a wicketkeeper-batsman or all-rounder averaging 35, meanwhile, you're blessed indeed.

 

[social]

It's certainly not appalling. It's perfectly adaquete, given that it amounted to nothing more than 1 bad series (The Ashes 2005) out of 3.

If you can get a wicketkeeper-batsman or all-rounder averaging 35, meanwhile, you're blessed indeed.

He's the no. 3 for Eng - 35 is crap

If you want to say "I like him because he's from Yorkshire and I hope they give him another go" that's fine

But you cannot justify his inclusion on the basis of performance - he's been largely poor for years now

 

[Richard]

He's a batsman - 35 is an average over a short period of time (and it's an average that went down in the most recent series) and it's perfectly acceptible for someone who always showed promise.

His county has absolutely nothing to do with my support for his position in the England side - I do like him as a cricketer, yes, and that's why I want him to play - because I think he is worthy of doing so.

 

[Bob Bamber]

Vaughan will just cause problems. I hope Peter Moores sees sense and drops him from both forms of the game. Everyone credits Vaughan for winning us the Ashes with his captaincy. What did he actually do. The one that many draw out was the Hayden field placings. One which were created by Duncan Fletcher , and that were also very well executed by Matthew Hoggard. And the other one seems to be the Gilchrist field settings. Hardly major news. If Gilchrist is going to get out , he doesn't normally throw it down square legs throat does he?. And as for with the bat. Hes had one good knock in England colours sinse the 02/03 Australia tour. That 150 at old trafford. Which , had it not been for a Glenn McGrath no ball wouldn't have happened (OK maybe that doesn't hold much water). But hes hasn't set the world alight.

In the One Day format , everyone goes on about his lack of hundreds. He doesn't actually score many runs at all. Most of the time he gets out in the 10 - 30 region. And even if he gets past that , he has shown a complete ineptness to go on. Its time for Vaughan to go.

As for Owais , im not terribly sure about a return to the test team , the Strauss , Cook , Bell , Pietersen , Collingwood top 5 looks fine to me. And If they put Pothas in at 6 the line up looks alot more secure.

Anyway a few other things. I'm beginning to wonder whether Flintoff could do with some time at Lancashire. Until after the West Indies series. He needs some serious runs , in both forms of the game. And I don't think that we need him finding form in the test/odi game. I think that this would free up a number 6/7 role. Maybe Owais , Bopara? Andrew Strauss proved that its easy to manage a sucessful team with four bowlers against Pakistan , and one of those was Saj Mahmood , who hardly shined in that series.

As for captain , I think Strauss/Collingwood. Maybe you'd sway towards Collingwood , particularly as I don't think that Strauss has a future in the One Day form of the game. Darren Gough suggested on Five Live last night that maybe you could give it to Pietersen , anyone think someone like Hoggard.

I'm glad to see someone like Peter Moores in. Aslong as he has some fresh ideas , we can do well , just Drop Vaughan PLEASE.

With regards to being at number 3. Compared to some of the other number 3's in the world (and lets not forget he was batting at 4 when Bell came in). Younis Khan , Ricky Ponting , Jacques Kallis (is he number 4?) , Sarwan , Tendulkar (OK hes getting old) , Jayawardena. Id have all those above Vaughan.

 

[Richard]

You'd have Sarwan ahead of Vaughan? Are you insane in the membrane?

I doubt Moores will want or be able to drop Vaughan - it's already been confirmed he will captain in the West Indies series. Nor do I think that's a bad thing - while, as I say, it'd be preferable for him to get some good games in for Yorks, the schedule doesn't allow such a thing.

I can't see how anyone can doubt Vaughan is an excellent Test captain, really. Sure, his part in The Ashes 2005 was overplayed (like many - Harmison, for instance), but there's no doubt in my mind he's a good captain. His only problems have been with the bat - those which are exaggerated by any number of things, be they ODIs being confused with Tests, opening the batting rather than batting three or four in Tests, or anything else. As far as I'm concerned, Vaughan had 1 bad series - summer 2005. Nothing else, and he's been injured virtually since then.

As for not picking Flintoff - it's OOTQ and I'd hope you know it.

 

[social]

What the hell has Moores got to do with selection?

Dont tell me that Eng still havent learnt their lesson from the Giles/Jones fiascoes in the winter - selectors select, coaches coach and players play

 

[Richard]

Coaches are selectors... yes?