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Where do England go from here?

Pup Clarke

Cricketer Of The Year
Does Cook deserve to be dropped?.IMO he doesn't as he has had an outstanding start to his test career.The only reason I'll see him playing however is if Trescothick makes himself unavailable.It would take a tough coach to drop Strauss or Vaughan for the 17th.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Why do either need to be left out?

What's wrong with picking Cook, Strauss, Vaughan, Bell, Collingwood, Pietersen and Flintoff (in some order) then a keeper and 3 bowlers?
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Does Cook deserve to be dropped?.IMO he doesn't as he has had an outstanding start to his test career.The only reason I'll see him playing however is if Trescothick makes himself unavailable.It would take a tough coach to drop Strauss or Vaughan for the 17th.
Cook doesn't deserve to be left-out, no - but Trescothick and Vaughan both have more compelling cases than him as far as I'm concerned. And as I say - the fact that Cook has years on his side makes me less uncomfortable with making him wait a short while.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Why do either need to be left out?

What's wrong with picking Cook, Strauss, Vaughan, Bell, Collingwood, Pietersen and Flintoff (in some order) then a keeper and 3 bowlers?
The only reason Cook would ever be left-out would be if Trescothick played. No-one's suggesting he'd fail to find a place unless both Trescothick and Vaughan were available (and happily it seems Vaughan is well on track to be so).
 

tooextracool

International Coach
No, it'd be reprisentative of picking the player who deserved the spot most.

Take a look at this. It is not the record of someone who deserves to be dropped.

Vaughan has unfinished business in Test cricket and those judging him by his ODI form would be best ignored.

Cook, on the other hand, has many, many years ahead of him - it can't possibly do either him or the team any harm to have a year or so out of the side.
Vaughan's average of 34 is hardly anything special, if anything his First chance average would be miserable given that the 166 makes a sizable difference in that average. And how on earth is someone who hasnt played a single FC game in the last year supposed to be put as a shoe in for the opening test against WI ?
I agree with Social on this one, picking Vaughan is everything that is wrong about England( that is picking players based on personal biasness and performances from decades ago) because the basic fact is that Vaughan's performances, yes even the one from 1.5 years ago, are not good enough for him to put his place down as a batsman alone. In the unlikely scenario that Vaughan went back and scored a plethora of runs in FC cricket before the first test( given that has happened in god knows how long we can almost certainly rule it out) then and only then should he put down as a certainity to start the first test.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Why do either need to be left out?

What's wrong with picking Cook, Strauss, Vaughan, Bell, Collingwood, Pietersen and Flintoff (in some order) then a keeper and 3 bowlers?
Why should Strauss be a certainity? I can understand how Vaughan is a certainty even if i disagree with it, but Strauss has been nothing short of rubbish since bowlers around the world have figured out how to bowl to him. There are enough questions in that top order for someone like Owais Shah to come in, even if he doesnt start the first test.
 

luffy

International Captain
Why should Strauss be a certainity? I can understand how Vaughan is a certainty even if i disagree with it, but Strauss has been nothing short of rubbish since bowlers around the world have figured out how to bowl to him. There are enough questions in that top order for someone like Owais Shah to come in, even if he doesnt start the first test.
Have you actually seen him bat?? He's timing and shot selection is faultless he just hasn't been getting runs.
 

social

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Vaughan's average of 34 is hardly anything special, if anything his First chance average would be miserable given that the 166 makes a sizable difference in that average. And how on earth is someone who hasnt played a single FC game in the last year supposed to be put as a shoe in for the opening test against WI ?
I agree with Social on this one, picking Vaughan is everything that is wrong about England( that is picking players based on personal biasness and performances from decades ago) because the basic fact is that Vaughan's performances, yes even the one from 1.5 years ago, are not good enough for him to put his place down as a batsman alone. In the unlikely scenario that Vaughan went back and scored a plethora of runs in FC cricket before the first test( given that has happened in god knows how long we can almost certainly rule it out) then and only then should he put down as a certainity to start the first test.

Totally agree

BTW Richard, all you've proven is that Vaughan's form has been crap and he doesnt deserve to be in the team
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Have you actually seen him bat?? He's timing and shot selection is faultless he just hasn't been getting runs.

Have you seen his technique? Time and time again his technique is exposed when bowlers pitch the ball up to him. Watching SA bowl to him the other day was a classic example how not to bowl to him, and you'd think a team like SA would have learnt 2.5 years later after he pretty much batted them out of the test series.

Strauss is pathtic against spin, and i'd be very very surprised if he managed anything over 50 against Murali and co this winter.

As far as Strauss' shot selection is concerned, surely you must be joking? Did you watch any of his last 2 winter tours?
 

luffy

International Captain
Have you seen his technique? Time and time again his technique is exposed when bowlers pitch the ball up to him. Watching SA bowl to him the other day was a classic example how not to bowl to him, and you'd think a team like SA would have learnt 2.5 years later after he pretty much batted them out of the test series.
Strauss is pathtic against spin, and i'd be very very surprised if he managed anything over 50 against Murali and co this winter.
Maybe his technique has been weak of late he just has been looking like a man in form but just continuing on with his starts. It's because he isn't real used to good spinners like Murali.
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
Vaughan's average of 34 is hardly anything special, if anything his First chance average would be miserable given that the 166 makes a sizable difference in that average. And how on earth is someone who hasnt played a single FC game in the last year supposed to be put as a shoe in for the opening test against WI ?
I agree with Social on this one, picking Vaughan is everything that is wrong about England( that is picking players based on personal biasness and performances from decades ago) because the basic fact is that Vaughan's performances, yes even the one from 1.5 years ago, are not good enough for him to put his place down as a batsman alone. In the unlikely scenario that Vaughan went back and scored a plethora of runs in FC cricket before the first test( given that has happened in god knows how long we can almost certainly rule it out) then and only then should he put down as a certainity to start the first test.
What a strange argument. Vaughan's form from two years ago is about as relevant as Vaughan's form in 2003. You can use his performances from said time to develop a point - however only an ability-based one. If you're saying Vaughan just isn't very good at all, and not that he's in poor form, then his performances from2005 would be taken into account along with the rest of his career. Vaughan is a test quality batsman, regardless of what sort of form he was in two years ago, and his test record proves that. Add that to the fact that he is unparalleled by anyone in the world as a test captain, and it'd be stupid to leave him out unless his became a joke (and no, I'm not referring to his form from 2004 or 2005, FTR.)
 
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Prince EWS

Global Moderator
Why should Strauss be a certainity? I can understand how Vaughan is a certainty even if i disagree with it, but Strauss has been nothing short of rubbish since bowlers around the world have figured out how to bowl to him. There are enough questions in that top order for someone like Owais Shah to come in, even if he doesnt start the first test.
There is no reason at all to bring Shah in. England have a plethora of proven test batsmen currently in and around the side to choose from, especially if Trescothick makes himself available. I can see why basically none of them would be certainties except for Pietersen - but only because they are competing with themselves - not because they aren't test standard and deserved to be dropped for Shah. Cook, Strauss, Vaughan, Trescothick (if available), Bell, Pietersen and Collingwood would and will all be considered before Shah, regardless of early season country cricket form.
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
Maybe his technique has been weak of late he just has been looking like a man in form but just continuing on with his starts. It's because he isn't real used to good spinners like Murali.
Even though he's been getting out to the quicks as well? I'm pro-Strauss but your points are far from convincing.
 

luffy

International Captain
Even though he's been getting out to the quicks as well? I'm pro-Strauss but your points are far from convincing.
:huh: I'm not saying he's getting out from spinners each innings, but he's been looking weaker when he's been playing spinners.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Maybe his technique has been weak of late he just has been looking like a man in form but just continuing on with his starts. It's because he isn't real used to good spinners like Murali.
Honestly, you dont go out of form for 2.5 years in the test arena and then miraculously score runs against the worst attack that is put in front of you during that period. His test record has suffered severely since his first year and theres a reason behind it.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
What a strange argument. Vaughan's form from two years ago is about as relevant as Vaughan's form in 2003. You can use his performances from said time to develop a point - however only an ability-based one. If you're saying Vaughan just isn't very good at all, and not that he's in poor form, then his performances from2005 would be taken into account along with the rest of his career. Vaughan is a test quality batsman, regardless of what sort of form he was in two years ago, and his test record proves that. Add that to the fact that he is unparalleled by anyone in the world as a test captain, and it'd be stupid to leave him out unless his became a joke (and no, I'm not referring to his form from 2004 or 2005, FTR.)
Let me put my point across a bit better.

1) He isnt 'match fit' which is something i stress so very often when players come back from injuries. Nobody and i mean i dont care if you are Glenn Mcgrath or Shane Warne, NOBODY deserves a free ride back in the side when you havent played cricket in a year and a half. Vaughan has absolutely no batting practice at any level, and 15 min WC innings dont change that. If he is to return to the side, it should be only after he strikes some sort of form in domestic cricket.

2) As far as whether Vaughan is a good enough test match cricketer, I dont know. He looked the part in 2002-03 but the fact is you can also eliminate that as a golden run which lasted for a bit over a year and hes been very very poor for 5 years after. 1 good year out of 6 doesnt make you a quality batsman, nor does it make you a dead set certainty in the side. You can go on stressing the fact that he is 'proven', but for how many years does a batsman have to fail to go from proven to 'unproven'. I am not convinced.

3) The issue regarding Vaughans Captaincy- re i rate his captaincy as highly as anyone else but the fact is that with him now 32 years old and a constant injury hazard it wouldnt be a bad idea at all to blood in a new captain, one that can actually lead England in every single test series, because otherwise you're looking for replacement captains in every other series. Given that we need a new ODI captain anyways, i would not be too disinclined to have Vaughan return as just a player because the fact is his batting record as a player has been far far superior to his corresponding record as captain.
 

social

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
What a strange argument. Vaughan's form from two years ago is about as relevant as Vaughan's form in 2003. You can use his performances from said time to develop a point - however only an ability-based one. If you're saying Vaughan just isn't very good at all, and not that he's in poor form, then his performances from2005 would be taken into account along with the rest of his career. Vaughan is a test quality batsman, regardless of what sort of form he was in two years ago, and his test record proves that. Add that to the fact that he is unparalleled by anyone in the world as a test captain, and it'd be stupid to leave him out unless his became a joke (and no, I'm not referring to his form from 2004 or 2005, FTR.)
How can you ignore his performances of the last few years?

If that was the case, Damien Martyn would still be Australia's no.4

Vaughan has been in deep decline for a no. of years and cannot command a guaranteed position on the basis of, in sporting terms, what amounts to ancient history.

As for his captaincy, he would have to be amongst the most overrated in living memory.

He had the benefit of a top-line bowling attack, all fit and in form.

Flintoff had emerged as the world's best all-rounder.

KP had qualified for Eng

Strauss was setting records all over the place.

In short, he'd have had to be a complete dunce not to win a few games with that lineup.

And, to cap it off, he's an absolute liability in the field.

If he's picked, bat him at 7 (or else have no.s 4 - 6 with their pads on and veeery nervous) and field him in the most protected position on the field.

The guy's time has come and gone. Eng should look to the future.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
There is no reason at all to bring Shah in. England have a plethora of proven test batsmen currently in and around the side to choose from, especially if Trescothick makes himself available. I can see why basically none of them would be certainties except for Pietersen - but only because they are competing with themselves - not because they aren't test standard and deserved to be dropped for Shah. Cook, Strauss, Vaughan, Trescothick (if available), Bell, Pietersen and Collingwood would and will all be considered before Shah, regardless of early season country cricket form.
and why should that be the case when Owais Shah has the most compelling case for selection? Everyone who saw him play against India was not just impressed but fascinated by the way he approaches his cricket and if anything he looks to have the Pietersenesque drive to succeed.

Strauss and Vaughan both have more convincing reasons for being dropped than Owaish shaw ever did and given that Trescothick(if fit) and Cook are both openers he doesnt even have a case for opening the batting.
 

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