What happened to the flipper?

[Migara]

Got 10 in an innings against them..

That line up was relatively poor. I am talking about mid early to mid 90s line up, where Warne bowled brilliantly against.

 

[vcs]

They were normal Indian decks offering a decent amount of assistance to spinners, Sachin batted in God mode throughout that summer and he even took a five-for in one of the ODIs where he failed with the bat. Thought Damien Fleming did an outstanding job for the Aussies in the ODI series, Tendulkar usually saw him off and then smashed the rest.

 

[Migara]

If the only way you can interpret rational discussion is "excuses" then there's no hope for you.

It's fair to say that the reason Warne didn't get as many wickets with the flipper against Asian batsmen is because he played Asian batsmen less when he was bowling the flipper. I was as interested in Migara's statement as anyone so I went and looked up some of the stats around that period.

There's such a small sample size of tests where a) Warne wasn't green AF; b) Warne bowled the flipper and c) Warne played Asian sides that he couldn't have gotten too many wickets with the flipper against them.

In the 90s India and Asia weren't the centre of the cricketing world. The prestigious teams to beat were the West Indies, Australia, England and South Africa. Warne played these three sides two to three times as much as the Asian nations.

But apparently hb thinks that's an excuse for not getting as many Asian batsmen out with the flipper. Frankly I'm getting tired of hb's personal attacks that don't add anything to the discussion. They seem to crop up in nearly every thread and I'm going to start reporting them if I see them.

The only time it happened was 95/96 series against SL. Warne was his best bowling flippers, and SL had an OKish side. If you see the highlights of that series, Warne's flipper was taken to cleaners by Sri Lankan left hand trio and Kaluwitharana, to an extend he stopped bowling it and started bowling the googly. In 95/95 Perth test IIRC, Warne bowls a perfect flipper to hit top of off to Aravinda (who was one of the poorest against spin in the side), where he goes back, waits and slaps it through cover point. Other four didn't even care. They happily pulled and cut the flippers.

Here at Perth, Tillekaratane takes on Warne. Warne had no answers to it. There is a flipper bowled early on, where he off drives.

 

[Daemon]

Here at Perth, Tillekaratane takes on Warne. Warne had no answers to it. There is a flipper bowled early on, where he off drives.

timestamp?

 

[the big bambino]

95/96. Perth though. Warne’s worst ground, in Aus at least. Spinners don’t really do well there.

 

[stephen]

It's entirely possible that the good Sri Lankan batsmen could pick the flipper. Apparently there was an audible click when it was bowled. But to extend that to all Asian batsmen is a bit much. Sri Lanka played 3 tests during the era in which Warne bowled it. He took six wickets in Perth, five in Melbourne and only one in Adelaide. Only one of those twelve wickets were lbw or bowled.

I can't be bothered going through the Pakistani dismissals but Warne routed them.

So it's quite possible that some Sri Lankan and Indian batsmen could pick the flipper but to extend that to all Asian batsmen is disingenuous.

 

[Migara]

It's entirely possible that the good Sri Lankan batsmen could pick the flipper. Apparently there was an audible click when it was bowled. But to extend that to all Asian batsmen is a bit much. Sri Lanka played 3 tests during the era in which Warne bowled it. He took six wickets in Perth, five in Melbourne and only one in Adelaide. Only one of those twelve wickets were lbw or bowled.

I can't be bothered going through the Pakistani dismissals but Warne routed them.

So it's quite possible that some Sri Lankan and Indian batsmen could pick the flipper but to extend that to all Asian batsmen is disingenuous.

During the era Warne bowled teh flipper Bangldhesh or Afghanisthan did not play tests. It was only India, Pakistan and Sri Lanka. Almost all Indian top order picked Warne, majority of Sri Lankans, and some Pakistanis. So it is not unfair to say most of Asian top order batsmen picked Warne's flipper. Out of the Pakistani's Salim Malik, Anwar and Sohail did well.

 

[TheJediBrah]

I remember Pakistan having no clue against Warne's slider. He took a ton of lbws with that thing in the second half of his career, and would have had a lot more if DRS was around.

 

[honestbharani]

I just think Warne bowled the slider better than the flipper. Not that his flipper was bad but his mastery of the slider was absolute.

 

[stephen]

During the era Warne bowled teh flipper Bangldhesh or Afghanisthan did not play tests. It was only India, Pakistan and Sri Lanka. Almost all Indian top order picked Warne, majority of Sri Lankans, and some Pakistanis. So it is not unfair to say most of Asian top order batsmen picked Warne's flipper. Out of the Pakistani's Salim Malik, Anwar and Sohail did well.

To be honest I don't remember a huge amount about watching Pakistan vs Australia in the 90s outside Taylor's 300 and Wasim and Waqar. I've just checked over Warne's figures against Pakistan in the era in question and there was only two tests in which Warne bowled and took less than 8 wickets. One of those tests was a draw at Rawalpindi and the other was a Hobart test in which Warne was injured and did not bowl. His other match figures were 8/150, 9/240, 11/77 and 8/121. If the Pakistani batsmen were picking his flipper it didn't matter at all to his match figures.

It's awkward talking about a specific delivery because there's no real way of actually verifying anything unless you have all the footage. Cricinfo scorecards are useless since they never did ball by ball coverage back then. Youtube highlights are useless because even if you find all the wickets you can't find footage of the balls batsmen didn't get out to. Even looking at wicket breakdowns is useless - the second youtube video when I searched was Ijaz Ahmed getting out to a Warne flipper by misreading it and skying a pull shot.

But India aside, if Asian batsmen were magically able to pick the flipper while batsmen from other countries weren't, they sure found other ways of getting out to Warne. And of course once Warne started to peak again in the early 00s he stopped bowling the delivery and started dismissing batsmen more through subtle variations than mystery balls.

 

[ankitj]

Wikipedia says flipper was signature delivery of Kumble and Warne. So that's for the question of whether Kumble bowled it or not.

 

[Migara]

To be honest I don't remember a huge amount about watching Pakistan vs Australia in the 90s outside Taylor's 300 and Wasim and Waqar. I've just checked over Warne's figures against Pakistan in the era in question and there was only two tests in which Warne bowled and took less than 8 wickets. One of those tests was a draw at Rawalpindi and the other was a Hobart test in which Warne was injured and did not bowl. His other match figures were 8/150, 9/240, 11/77 and 8/121. If the Pakistani batsmen were picking his flipper it didn't matter at all to his match figures.

It's awkward talking about a specific delivery because there's no real way of actually verifying anything unless you have all the footage. Cricinfo scorecards are useless since they never did ball by ball coverage back then. Youtube highlights are useless because even if you find all the wickets you can't find footage of the balls batsmen didn't get out to. Even looking at wicket breakdowns is useless - the second youtube video when I searched was Ijaz Ahmed getting out to a Warne flipper by misreading it and skying a pull shot.

But India aside, if Asian batsmen were magically able to pick the flipper while batsmen from other countries weren't, they sure found other ways of getting out to Warne. And of course once Warne started to peak again in the early 00s he stopped bowling the delivery and started dismissing batsmen more through subtle variations than mystery balls.

Which is actually true. Good SC batsmen do note the changes in the bowling action, especially a pronounced change like that of a flipper. The slider however is a different kettle of fish. Some sliders may be intentional and others are plain old leg breaks, hitting the shine and going straight. Unless you are very good at playing off the pitch, the second types of deliveries are trouble. Only extremely good batsmen will notice the difference in release for a slider as well.

This is the very reason why Jadeja as so good. Even he doesn't know which ones gonna turn and which one gonna go straight. Now try to pick that from the hand and . . . .

 

[stephen]

Warne's top spinner was also much more potent in his early career than it was later on as well. I remember him using it to great effect against the West Indies.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Wikipedia says flipper was signature delivery of Kumble and Warne. So that's for the question of whether Kumble bowled it or not.

says more about the veracity of Wikipedia than anything else

Which is actually true. Good SC batsmen do note the changes in the bowling action, especially a pronounced change like that of a flipper. The slider however is a different kettle of fish. Some sliders may be intentional and others are plain old leg breaks, hitting the shine and going straight. Unless you are very good at playing off the pitch, the second types of deliveries are trouble. Only extremely good batsmen will notice the difference in release for a slider as well.

This is the very reason why Jadeja as so good. Even he doesn't know which ones gonna turn and which one gonna go straight. Now try to pick that from the hand and . . . .

Yeah same with Herath

 

[Daemon]

says more about the veracity of Wikipedia than anything else


Yeah same with Herath

Herath bowled a decent arm ball iirc.

 

[Migara]

Herath bowled a decent arm ball iirc.

and a carrom ball too.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Herath bowled a decent arm ball iirc.

Maybe, but most of his wickets from straight balls that I saw were just finger spinners that didn't turn, ie. natural variation off the pitch. Same thing that makes jadeja so dangerous on turning wickets.

 

[Starfighter]

Maybe, but most of his wickets from straight balls that I saw were just finger spinners that didn't turn, ie. natural variation off the pitch. Same thing that makes jadeja so dangerous on turning wickets.

Yep. He once said in an interview he didn't know when it was going to go on straight. Maybe he was having it on, but Wilfred Rhodes said the same thing many years ago. In Herath's case his lack of height and smaller hands meant he'd cut under the ball, especially when bowling the more roundarm ones, which would increase their chance of skidding.

Don't think he even bowled the carrot ball in his good period. Certainly didn't pick up wickets with it.

 

[Prince EWS]

In his first period in Test career Herath bowled a mean carrom ball. The only left-armer I've ever seen bowl one internationally, and I think actually the first bowler fullstop unless we count old Iverson clips. When he made his comeback post-Murali he'd lost the delivery -- presumably just because he didn't think it was worth it. What was more surprising to me was that he didn't even bring it out for the World T20 he played in.

 

[honestbharani]

Both Ashwin and Jadeja have spoken about how they try to ball on certain side of the seam, or give it a bit of an undercut, when delivering so as to try and get it to spin lesser sometimes. They may not know the exact degree to which some balls will turn and some won't etc., but the finger spinners who can beat both edges usually have a pretty decent idea of what they are trying to bowl. Its not like they dunno which one will turn and which one won't literally. Just that they can't be sure of the level of the turn or lack of it.